Podcast E28: How Do You Handle a Narcissist?

In episode 28 of the Magdalene Effect podcast, Mette Miriam Sloth and Sune Sloth delve into the complex world of narcissism, offering a comprehensive understanding of this personality disorder and strategies for navigating relationships with narcissistic individuals. The focus is on recognizing and handling narcissists, particularly when children are involved.

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  Narcissistic Traits vs. Personality Disorder:

  The hosts emphasize the importance of distinguishing between narcissistic traits, which can surface in anyone under pressure, and a full-blown narcissistic personality disorder. Narcissists exist in a constant state of narcissism, lacking self-awareness and the ability to take responsibility for their actions. Their self-perception is distorted, and they often see themselves as victims, even when they are the ones causing harm.

  Recognizing a Narcissist:

  Beyond the persistent narcissistic state, several behavioral patterns can indicate a narcissistic personality disorder:

  • Lack of Gratitude: They take what you give for granted and always expect more.

  • Shifting Responsibility: They constantly seek excuses to avoid accountability.

  • Controlling Behavior: They attempt to control you and your relationships.

  • Backstabbing: They speak negatively about you to others to manipulate them.

  • Gaslighting: They manipulate you into doubting your own perceptions and reality.

  • Worsening with Age: Their narcissistic behavior often intensifies with age as they reject any form of criticism and delve deeper into self-deception.

  Protecting Yourself from Narcissistic Manipulation:

  The podcast presents several strategies for safeguarding yourself and your children from a narcissist's manipulation:

  • Minimize Contact: Limit interactions to only what is absolutely necessary and avoid getting drawn into unnecessary discussions.

  • Set Clear Boundaries: Be explicit about what you will and will not tolerate, and be prepared for resistance when establishing boundaries.

  • Avoid Sharing Personal Information: Narcissists will weaponize your vulnerabilities against you. Maintain a professional distance.

  • Avoid Arguments: They are not interested in understanding your perspective.

  • Don't Defend Yourself: Explanations and apologies only provide them with more ammunition.

  • Stand Firm in Your Reality: Don't allow yourself to be manipulated into doubting your own perceptions.

  • Seek Support: Talk to friends, family, or a therapist who understands the situation.

  Protecting Children in Relationships with a Narcissist:

  Children are particularly vulnerable to narcissistic manipulation. The hosts offer the following advice for protecting children:

  • Validate the Child's Experiences: Listen to your child and acknowledge their feelings without judgment.

  • Avoid Participating in "Gaslighting": Affirm your child's perception of reality and help them trust their own experiences.

  • Help the Child Set Boundaries: Teach your child to recognize and stand up to the narcissist's manipulative behavior.

  • Create an Alternative Reality: Provide your child with the experience of a healthy and loving family environment.

  Important to Remember:

  The hosts emphasize that it is unlikely that a narcissist will change. It is crucial to prioritize your own mental health and that of your children, and consider breaking off contact if necessary.

• Transcript

  Translated transcript of the original Danish podcast

  Hosts: Mette Miriam Sloth & Sune Sloth

  Sune Sloth: Hello listeners. We've written an extensive series of articles where we go into and unfold all the topics we unfold in this podcast in writing and in detail with a guide on our website. You can find the link in the description of the podcast or search for the model. Pause the effect and go to Resources and take a look at our article series on narcissism. There we cover all the concepts we talk about here in detail. We get into the defense mechanisms, gaslighting, configuring and many other things, and we also look at how to deal if you have a child with a person with very strong narcissistic traits. Happy listening. Welcome to episode 28 of the Magdalene Effect Podcast. How do you deal with a narcissist? Part 1. In this podcast, we dive into a pattern that professionals refer to as narcissism. We highlight the challenges you may encounter with individuals who exhibit this particular pattern. Before you listen further, we recommend that you consider taking a listen to episode 5, called. The Narcissistic Defense and the Magdalene Effect Podcast, where Mette Slot will give you a deeper understanding of what the concept entails. In this podcast, we will go through some of the dynamics that can arise in a relationship with a narcissist and how to deal with them. When a person consistently exhibits this pattern and there is no change over time, no self-awareness, no taking responsibility, blaming, etc. In the podcast, it's essential to deal with them differently than in other relationships.

  Sune Sloth: It's to protect yourself from being drained or feeling like you have to hide your true self away at the risk of being broken. We advise you not to label anyone in your life as a narcissist or give them the narcissism label. But it's important to understand that we use the term narcissism to describe a very specific personality structure that can be extremely challenging and very destructive. Our perspectives on the energetic dimensions come from our own personal experience and understanding, and as always, we encourage you to critically engage with what makes sense to you and leave the rest. It is rare for a psychologist or psychiatrist to directly label someone in their circle as a narcissist without extensive investigation, as this would violate professional ethical guidelines. This creates a gap in understanding, which we try to address in this period. It is important to point out that we are not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist. We do not have the authority to diagnose anyone. Therefore, we discuss the topic as informed laymen based on our own knowledge and literature experiences and what we have studied. Furthermore, Mette shares her many insects from 10 years as a therapist assisting people with these challenges. Good listening. Yes, welcome to the Magdalene Effect Podcast, where we will start episode 28. And Mette, will you introduce today's topic?

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes, today we're going to talk about what we call narcissistic defenses, and we've actually done a podcast about it before. But what we're going to talk about today is actually how you deal with relationships with people who have some or many of these defenses. Because it's possible to get to a place where you would actually say are unaffected by them. In the sense that you are not. That they're not on your mind all the time, or that you feel overwhelmed by them. Or that you feel that these people crawl under your skin when you just write to you or contact you, or whatever it may be. And here it might make sense to summarize why we call it narcissistic defenses And why these defenses? There are many defenses, which is why these defenses are so extremely annoying and can be so debilitating to be around. You can also have narcissistic defenses that you can take care of, but right now, it's about being on the other side of it. But you feel the pressure from others who don't take care of theirs. And because this defense, it's such a hassle. It's basically because it's stagnated immaturity. Narcissistic defenses are basically immaturity, but immaturity can mature. But for anything to mature, it requires an ability for self-reflection.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: It requires the ability to feel the pain that you can cause others when you act immaturely, selfishly, immaturely. It's very, very me that you interpret the world as if it's always someone against me, that you don't take responsibility for your own behavior and your own contribution to a drama etc. What gets tricky here when we talk about narcissistic defenses is that in narcissism. I just want to say that you can have narcissistic defenses without being a full-blown narcissist. What lies in the word narcissist narcissism is precisely the coupling of constantly projecting your own reality onto others. There is basically a huge fear in narcissism because it is immaturity. So in all immaturity there is a fear of the world. There's a fear of unpredictability. There's a fear of being attacked. There is a lot of fear. Fear of not having your needs met. So it's really very sad. But the problem is that we can all have these at times. But these defenses have simply stagnated. Because there is no opportunity for self-reflection. So when you meet yourself, what? You get so confused when you meet these defenses, because it feels like you're talking to a small child in an adult body, where the person digs deeper and deeper into a strange reality and does everything to push this reality into you.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: There is zero acceptance or respect for the fact that the reality inside you is different. The person can't accommodate it because the person can't hold multiple perspectives, can't hold multiple nuances, because it's in immaturity. I have to just hold on to what I think I understand. And then I hold on to the fact that this is how it should be. This is how it should be. And if you say anything else about it, then there's something wrong with you, and I'll keep going at you until you're so exhausted or you're so confused that you take something on. So in narcissistic defenses, there isn't an ability to deal with the emotional tension that you can misstep. That you can act immaturely. That you're not perfect. And there's always a backwards turn. Basically, there's a big disclaimer, which is related to the inability to get down into vulnerability and get down and feel. My goodness, I've also said something that I don't actually mean. I can see that I got it wrong. Or I can see that I acted childishly. I can see you, as we all can. But that self-awareness is not there.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: As if it's there. It's momentary. And then it switches to. It's also your fault. And I only acted that way. Because you did something. So there's a constant abdication of responsibility and pushing it away from oneself than an external projection. Of course, it makes that when you're with people who are here. It's a huge hassle. But you can also be with people who have others. We all have immaturity. Because we're a young species. And you know. It takes a lot to mature. Because we have all kinds of emotions. We react to all kinds of things. We bring all kinds of things from our childhood. There are all kinds of things. But the difference is that you find that if you have a conflict with a person that is really unpleasant, you go your separate ways and are furious, and then you try to meet again when you've calmed down. And here it may well be that you have actually said no to something. And the other Another person has behaved immaturely and behaved childishly, which you could say means that the person has fallen into a narcissistic defense. But if the person comes back again and says, you know what, I'm sorry I acted like one. I was simply so overwhelmed that I acted like a three-year-old, and I couldn't control it, so words simply came out of my mouth.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: And of course you shouldn't be responsible for that. I'm really sorry. I don't know, I just ended up in a place where the past hurt. But I'll take care of that myself. Can you forgive me? That's where we take responsibility. That is, we wake up from this state, we go back, and then we repair. So there's nothing wrong with us ending up in places where we sometimes freak out, because we all do. It's very human. The problem is, when we talk narcissistic defenses, this person would never do that. The person never comes back and repairs or takes on realizations and changes behavior over time. These people can come back and say something that looks like they're taking responsibility. But it's more and so and so, and then you're like okay, thank you, that was nice, and then you land again. But then a week goes by, or three weeks, or however long it takes. Then you end up in exactly the same place with them. And that's because they're afraid that the relationship is going to fall apart. And then they can use parrot language, but they are deep down inside. They can say I can see that it was uncomfortable for you too, and they can say something. They've learned some words, but inside they don't feel a realization.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: There is no realization. They don't feel burdened, or they don't feel that they have a responsibility for it. They just tell you to make sure that they still have access to you and your resources and that they don't lose the relationship. And that is, they can learn these words, uh, talk and parrot psychological language, but within a short time, they end up in the same behavior where they constantly put their own feelings on you. And you can get so confused that you can stay in some relationships for years. Because, well, they did apologize. But that's because you shouldn't look at what they say. You need to look at whether their behavior changes. People start to take responsibility for their behavior. Then they mature, they only talk about taking responsibility but don't do it, then they are trapped in immaturity. Needs some water. And it's an unbelievable hassle. And you actually have to figure out what to do with these people in your life. Because if you've observed for years that this is what's happening. It could be an ex-partner, it could be your husband, it could be your wife, it could be your parents, it could be some friends, it could be family members, it could be someone at work. You could say that the closer a relationship you have with people who reject, you unconsciously reject and mature.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: The harder it is, because you will be entangled in their rigid reality all the time, and as soon as you question it or just have a different reality, have a different perspective on something that triggers them, then there's trouble. Every time you have a different perspective on something that they feel strongly about, there's conflict. They can't handle difference. Only if that difference has no emotional charge for them, because they're basically terrified of the world. So you have to be in a specific way that they want. There will be an extreme attempt to control you and get you somewhere so that they don't feel anxiety in their own system. And that's why these defenses are so crazy, and the longer you're with someone who has these defenses, the more insane you become. Because you're constantly being thrown into some strange conflict, where you might just say No, I don't think so. Or when I want to eat meat, or whatever it might be. There can be different things, there can be some really sharp conflict debate on very small things like, well, whether you like red and I like blue, and you can't know when they trigger.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: They're very predictable in terms of when they'll trigger, but it can be the strangest things they trigger over. And then you saw that I just got a charge on it that you didn't know? So if you and very often very empathic people will be with people who have these defenses and empathic people can sense when you trigger and you press you and you trigger there, then I try to go around it and I want to take care of you. I want to, and I often don't like to be in conflict, so you create all these islands, so we avoid those hot spots. The problem is that it requires an insane amount of energy from you, and then there are a lot of things in yourself that you have to pack away. There are opinions, you have to withhold their views about your own life. You have to stop sharing and there are things you have to let slide, and you're also going to have to eat some camels in terms of being forced to take some things on. That you're guilty of something that you're not really guilty of. But to get peace, you just say yes, we'll say it. So you start to feel eaten up, and you almost start to get smaller and smaller and smaller and drained and tired, so it hits you.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: You don't have an option. You become more and more restricted in your expression, so it's the one thing to make sure that this person doesn't trigger and attack you, and that there is no conflict. So that's why most people and you know it. Have you met a new colleague, or are you at a meeting where someone else is sitting? You will quickly notice if a person has these immaturity spots because they are super tense. It's like you can just feel it. Uh, we have to be careful with that. It's a bit like you can almost feel that this person is about to explode. You can feel it. The energy and what we then tend to do is to make sure that this person doesn't explode. And this is where we actually make a mistake. It's very understandable, because it's not nice to be around people who explode. You can see the facial expressions get tight and the tone of voice gets hard and icy cold and everything. But the problem is that when we pack ourselves away to avoid these people being pushed into explosions, we also allow this person to be trapped in immaturity. And people don't actually get a response to their behavior that hurts a little bit. They don't get mirrored back with equal force. Equal pressure, if you will.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: We shouldn't cross their boundaries, but I don't want to take on the fact that we mirror back. I don't agree with that, and we stand firm. It's actually the only way that person can show you again and again and again and again and again. It's not working, it's manipulative, and that's your perspective. I have the right to choose to have my own perspective. I have my free will. And no, it's not my perspective. And that's actually the most important thing. Love. We can do. It's actually hugely unloving to deflect and slip because it makes this person, even when they get into their 70s, run the same teenage immaturity. It could be in a family. It could be a family member who controls the whole family with this. Where everyone avoids. But you shouldn't say anything to her, because she'll get angry. We all have to make sure we do this, because otherwise she'll get angry and it'll be a hassle. Or this guy. Then he explodes, and that's a pain on Christmas Eve too. So now we don't say that he's sitting there being really grumpy and drinking a bit too much, or whatever it might be. So the fact that we take care in this way contributes to keeping people immature. And we often do this to try to maintain the illusion that we're preserving some family structures that are extremely problematic in relationships.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: So it's difficult? I can understand that. Because we're thinking, “Phew. If we say no, then the whole family structure falls apart, and that creates all sorts of other fears and anxiety. So that's why we don't do it. But the problem is that we perpetuate these very dysfunctional ways of being together that make people's stomachs hurt leading up to the Family Gathering and they just can't stand it, because there's so much unsaid and these dynamics they control. I can see when I help women in particular with this, because it's mainly women who approach me, but also a few men, but men and women. It's that, even though you might have come out that you've had a relationship with an ex-partner where that was a challenge and you've broken off the relationship, which is hard enough in itself. It's very hard to get out of a relationship. With someone with narcissistic defenses. It's like it still haunts you because you've gotten used to being. You know that person explodes and blames you and blames you and makes you wrong and calls you selfish and has no problem walking on you. And it can be in very sophisticated ways.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: So, it's not like if the person was just always flipping out and slapping you, it was pretty clear that it was destructive behavior. But it could be right. It can be very manipulative that the person has unconsciously picked up on your vulnerability and you know it's a close relationship. You've shared some vulnerable things about yourself, and this means that the person can manipulate you into saying that you're someone who's a little sensitive, or you're also very anxious, or you're someone who's not particularly rewarding. Or maybe you're just someone who doesn't really bother with family, or you had a hard time at some point, so they can. They can be very eloquent and get in where they can hit you and make you cringe. And when you shrink, you take on other people's shit, so you can say what's actually in response. When you've been in relationships, narcissistic defenses are very common. Not everyone is a narcissist. There are differences. But that everyone has some immaturity in places that they cringe about and that they stubbornly maintain that they're allowed to have and they're allowed to claim and to be stroked by the hair. It's extremely common, so I would say that the vast majority of people will have people in their lives who are like this and who are annoying, who are super annoying to be around.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: And you actually have to learn how to navigate this, and you have to figure out what to do. And you have to look at it very honestly and objectively. The first step is to find out how much this person takes up in your inner world, because you need to find out how harmful it is to you, how much you have internalized this person so that it affects your power, and it piles you up with all kinds of junk that actually makes it difficult for you to go out in life as who you are and do what you have come to do or be. And here you can give some rules of thumb to find out how much does this person take up? Some people don't do this. Some don't do this piece of work because if they think it through, there will be a realization that they would have to break the relationship. And some don't dare to think that thought through because they don't dare to think about the consequences. And I understand that. Just know that if you choose to stay in the relationship with these patterns without doing anything, you will have to pack yourself away. You will make yourself smaller.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: You will have to do something you don't want to do to accommodate the other person. You have to play along with the lie, and if you have children, you will also force them to play along with the lie. Because if it's a close family member, your children are also expected to play along within this framework. So you have to consider whether it's worth the cost. I'm not saying it can't be. I'm not going to tell you what to do here, because it's hard. Answers have to land inside of you. It's more to say that's just the way it is. These patterns. If the narcissistic defenses they don't go away. They're going to be there for the rest of our lives. It's a behavior that we get dismantled as we evolve. So give it another 50, 100, 200 years, and this kind of immaturity is gone. I don't believe that anymore, but right now we're struggling with them. And if a human is completely stuck, it's very possible that they die out with those defenses, so you have to figure out how to do the math. What do I want to do here? And it's actually quite crucial for you to take this very seriously. How deep have I taken this person in? And how loud is this person inside me and what does it mean? It will be if you're down and acting and you try to think about it.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: I'd like to buy that. Oh no, now I'm probably going to be told there's some milk protein in it, or there's some flavoring, or it's not organic, or it's not organic. If you're already thinking that you're stopping yourself from buying something because you're having a complex conversation about a choice you've made because someone at home has a conviction that it should be a different way, so it's a hassle, so you don't buy it, then you've internalized it. If you're out buying some clothes, thinking it's really very nice. And no, I can't do that, because then I'll just be told something. It's not nice enough, or it's too expensive or whatever. So you don't buy that piece of clothing because you have an opinion about it and you can't handle the conversation. Or you know, that partner or that family member is not going to like that piece of clothing. So I would get a comment about that piece of clothing. Every single time I put it on and you're figuring it out, I can wear it to work.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Oh no, because if I do that and the person comes in in the morning, I can leave before they see me wearing it. If it's too much of a hassle, I don't do it. Then you've internalized the person. If you're invited to a party and you're thinking I don't want to go. Yes, it's some cousins and stuff, but I haven't seen them in 20 years, and I'm basically not someone I have anything with, and it's five hours away. It doesn't really feel like it. All respect to them, and I don't have that. There's nothing personal in it. I just have my own network and I have things I need to do. I actually need to take a weekend off. But you think shit if I cancel here. If I decline to politely say thank you for the invitation. Unfortunately, I can't do that. Then I will be slandered by some family. I will be called selfish. I will be called everything. I will be frozen out. I might not be invited to the next family thing. Or when I show up, there will be a weird vibe where I will be told that it would be in the air that there is something wrong with me. So I go because I can't handle it. Then it's internalized. Or if you're the kind of person who doesn't actually want to celebrate life in the way that many people do? If I throw a party, you sit down and eat, invite friends and acquaintances, and then you're guaranteed to be invited to their wedding and everything else.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Because that's how you make sure you get to some social events. If you're not that kind of person, you actually just enjoy having little gift rings or just not really celebrating. Just being with your loved ones or being in your own company. But you're thinking I have to fuck, I'm turning forty. Oh shit or oh no, it's my kid's birthday. I would just like it to be my wife or my husband. And my kids don't really want to have that extended family with them, because I don't think it's nice. I think I should work hard, but if I don't, I get criticized. Then I start getting sarcastic remarks about Well, you probably haven't done anything, or the air starts to get weird, and I can expect that I'll be slandered and there's no respect for the fact that I do things differently. That makes me a little bit. Then it will be internalized. So if you look at your life and look at the places where you want to do something that springs from your inner self as an impulsive this, I have this.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Do I want to? I don't want to do this, but you have to curb it because others will have an attitude or opinion about you that they will stubbornly hold on to, even though it has nothing to do with them. It's something you do for yourself that isn't that at all. Not a criticism of them. You just make yourself live your life differently than how they do. Then it's internalized. And if you go through the seams, you'll actually find that you probably have a lot. Especially if you have people in your life who have narcissistic defenses. Do they have this immaturity going on? Then you'll have a lot of these voices, and when you start doing that work, you might get quite desperate because you might find that those voices are there all the time, and you spend so much of your life force on this, and you feel so much guilt and shame about it. Consider doing something that you long to do because you've gotten used to other people criticizing you for being you, being different from them, and you've taken it in and listened and exchanged with it and tried to explain a little bit and then and then it's gone off the rails. No one, no one, has the right to ask you to explain your point of view in life, which is different from theirs, when it doesn't affect them negatively.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: In the sense that you're about to hit them. Sure, but when it's not offensive to others, you have the full right to express yourself as you are. No one has the right to put you in a box and make you do something so they feel comfortable in their own reality. But nevertheless, that's what humans do all the time, and it's transgressive as hell. You can't do anything to others. You can't. You may have tried and tried talking to these people, talking up and down poles. It doesn't help a damn thing. You can't make someone move. People move if they experience something. It's their own process. So the only thing you can do is you can empower your own voice and you can do the things that you think are important to fill it and to be who you are. But in order to do that, you have to have the courage to do it. Do you also have to face the consequences that come with it? And the consequence may well be that if you speak up, your entire family will turn their backs. It may well be that your whole family walks away.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: It may well be that your closest friends take sides with the one friend you've broken up with, and you lose your group of friends. It could be that the partner you're leaving slanders you to all your friends and drags you to the registry office to try to take the kids into some nasty fight and tries to ruin you financially. Yes, it's all possible. So it takes courage, and that's why you haven't often spoken up, because you realize that if I express myself here and go my own way in life, it can have some big consequences. So you're in a place here where you have to find out if you dare to do it. Again, I'm not going to dictate it in any way whatsoever. I'm just going to say that there is a benefit in taking on that work. Because starting to fill your field with who you are and not what everyone else expects you to be for them. It's so ecstatic and so powerful and so loving. It's a place to go. So if I have to give any kind of carrot in going underground and walking in the darkness alone, which you'll get to now when you stand up to these people, you'll find that someone turns their back, and they try to get others to turn their back too, because they have to join forces with someone against you.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: So it's a tough road. But there's also a real gain in it, because staying in it. It means that you can never fully be who you are, because there's no room for who you are. People with narcissistic defenses don't care who you are. It doesn't matter. They are only interested in you being the image they have projected onto you. And if you fight it, they'll spank you and you'll have to move away from them because it's simply uncomfortable to be in. So they don't do it. They're not psychopaths. They do it calculatingly evil. But, but, but it's not about being evil or not evil. It's more about it being the mechanism of immaturity. You have to see it as a 3 year old or a 12 year old or behaviors that are at a very immature stage that they play out over and over again. And it's just uncomfortable to be around, so you can look at that person and their soul journey, their journey life with compassion. While at the same time not accepting their behavior. And that's actually, I would say, the best way.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: The best thing you can do for narcissistic behavior, the way to free yourself from it, is to get to a place where you are complete. Where you live your life without ever thinking about these people. They're just free to live their own life and they can do drama. They can slander, they can, they can do whatever they want. Fortunately, they basically can't touch you because we live in a relatively free society. But it's true that there are some periods when you have to consider using all your good and your intuition. If you're considering ending these relationships, because you actually have to consider how much havoc, how much drama can these people cause? So, for example, you have small children together and you're thinking, “Phew, let's get together when the kids have to be dragged through it. I've seen some women who have made an exit plan and I want to be together. It would be the same with a man, by the way, if it was the other way around in relationships. I've actually heard from a man too. I spoke to a man who had been in a situation with a woman and when he leaves her, and he is grateful that he had considered leaving her earlier. But he simply didn't dare to do it because he thinks phew, aren't you asking old enough? It's going to be hell if she drags them through the state office, because she has no problem lying.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: She had also called the police and accused him of violence when he hadn't been there because she needed to get that recognition that she should be seen as a victim, so he knew she was capable of the wildest shit. But the kids were grown now, and he had been married, so he had to sell everything he had so that she could get half. Fortunately, he had established a really good business, so he could survive even on the other side. So he was kind of okay. It's a lost. But it has to be stopped now. So there's something about considering when it's sometimes possible. Sometimes you may have to stay in these relationships for longer than you want, because you think that the price of the drama they can create can be so high that I need to establish myself first. It may also be that you need to be in a place where your finances are better. It may be difficult to break away from a family where you think, “Oh, I sometimes need help with my children or with what I need to borrow for a car loan or something else, you know.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: If I start rocking the boat, I can't call. If you trust your instinct here. If you have a feeling that if I speak up and start living who I am. If I then find myself in a situation where I ask to borrow some money or something, the answer will be no. Trust that this is probably the case. You might be like, okay, I need to make myself independent first. I have to make sure that I'm so solid that I can stand up to the fact that no one has my back if I start living as who I am. So it's also to say that some people think you overthink it. No, it can't be that bad. Of course, if it's family, they'll always be there for me and stuff like that. There's no guarantee of that. If you have a family with narcissistic defenses and you start being who you are, they will turn their back on you. You can be sure that they will slander you. They will manipulate you. Get you back into the fold. You have to align yourself. So it takes a lot of strength to stand there. But again, you have to think about it.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: The first step is to take all these points in relation to the voices inside your head. And then it's actually to start creating a counterbalance and say Okay, I'm practicing. I'm practicing the thing I want to buy at SuperBrugsen, or whatever it might be. Groceries. Blacksmith. Oh, now I have to. Then I have to listen to my partner actually recommend that you practice something that is a little uncomfortable, but that you can handle, and then you buy it, and then you hold on when you get home. You hold on. I don't want to listen to that. I don't want to discuss this. I have the right to buy something I don't want to talk to. Don't be sarcastic about it. Don't be ironic about it. It's that you're triggered by the fact that I bought it. It's your own. You actually have to start practicing the situation on your feet and hold on to the fact that you have the right to be different. You actually need to start practicing being able to say no, so that your system begins to have the opportunity to feel the discomfort that you can stand there. And here you may need a little help. In the sense that your system may be so worn out that you may have gotten used to compensating.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Stretching and bending may date back to childhood. It's not atypical that if you end up in a relationship with a partner where these traits are present, you will also have compensated and adapted in your childhood. So you've already gotten used to sensing where the other person is and then taking them into account. And therefore, you have the opportunity in your relationship to clean it up. But it hurts when you really see it again, because as a child you didn't have the opportunity because you were helpless. So when you're in the relationship, if you can feel just buying, whether it's that there's an ideology about it having to be organic, so you buy organic, or there's something about not spending too much money. So you buy the expensive organic, same shit. There is something that the person triggers that you have to listen to again and again and again. Because the person can't have you doing something, so it's small things that the person has to comment on again and again and again and again and again to make sure you don't do it because it disturbs their worldview. If you can feel that just buying a hummus that is organic and then you have to have long conversations about it, that you're already getting tired and cold.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Then you've been exposed to this and have adapted to such an extent that you need a little help to get your system back. Because you're a shark alert and what happens when I look at it energetically here is that when we adapt to this, we make our energy system. It's that we simply withdraw our power. So you almost have to say that you're almost pulling your own field right under your spine. You simply make yourself invisible, and that's why you can say that there's truth in the fact that no one actually can. Crossing the boundaries of psychological violence if you. If you reject it. That is actually true. Conversely, I would say that because there has been so much violence in evolution, we have become accustomed to it. So your field will have been penetrated by transgressions, you've gotten so used to it that you've learned almost nothing else. So you shouldn't see it as if. Oh no, I've made it super bad myself. That's the worst thing you can say to people who are in this situation, that it's their own fault. It's not your fault. This has been going on for thousands of years. Have we humans crossed each other's boundaries? You should see it more as a negative side effect of a very bumpy evolution, so you're not to blame.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: That's what has happened. Yes, but it's not about blame at all. But what you can do is actually start working on letting your own power, your own voice, your own frequency, fill your field. And there it is possible. And it's possible to come from being completely invisible and being a shadow of yourself, where you know that who you are on the inside in the inner world is completely different from the one you show to the outer world, and you've even stood there and thought I'll never ever manage to show myself in the outer world. I simply don't dare. It is possible to get from there and then to stand completely uncompromising, but with compassion and respect towards other people. Just saying no, I don't want to do that. I'm not going to take it on. Yes, and simply say that you don't want to be involved and then stand in the consequence and say yes, then you can relieve me. But then you want to join in and invite me in. But then you don't have to help me. Where you, where you, where you really have so much confidence and so much power that you can find your way in life, and that there are some people you can reason with, that you can travel with, and that you can leave other people alone when they do all their drama.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: That journey is possible. So the question is really more about whether you would take on that journey. And here I would recommend And seek help if you're in a place where you're down in Netto and considering this. And dammit, I bought it there. It's too much hassle with all that talk. If you can feel it, I sure as hell can. You know, I just thought it was a hassle, and I've adapted. If you could feel that you have the strength in your field, then you could actually start doing the work yourself. So it's really just starting to say no, I'm not going to take that on. Or I'm going to walk away, because you're leaving, or I'm going to take something on, and I don't agree with that. And then you leave and I don't want to. You have to figure it out on your own, and I don't want to sit and talk to you about it. And it's kind of You don't have access to my consciousness right now. You're intruding. I haven't told you, I want to talk about this right now, and you don't have the right to just stand there and talk into me. Then you can actually start practicing setting boundaries. So if you can feel that you're a little curious about it, you have some courage, then start practicing.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Then you can start setting the boundaries that are just below your comfort zone. But not everything. You may not drop the whole family at the first opportunity if you have to, but you'll take it up with that annoying colleague. You take it up with that difficult friend, where you you you you you. You're especially hard to say No, I don't want you to practice that. What happens in my system when I just say No, I don't want to do that. Or No, I don't agree with that. And in all kinds of conversations, there will be places where you feel that you inhibit yourself a little, and this is where you practice, and the more you practice standing and saying no, I don't think so. Period. No more. You don't explain, you don't say, but I understand that you feel this way, and there must be room for it. You cut out all the superfluous bullshit. You're just practicing saying no, I don't think so. Period. And then you realize how it is in your system that you don't try to appease. You don't send pray, pray, hands and hearts on a comment on Facebook. You're not going out. It's not uncomfortable, but you stand up for what you believe and respect that others may think differently.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: You start practicing it. Then you actually allow your own power to come out into your field, and here you can see what happens? Do you feel a little guilty? Should I be doing this? Am I being too much? Then you can sit with them and breathe through it. If they take off on their own. If you, if you can feel it in your system, and the fact that you really just have awareness of them and can breathe through, and they then take off and become integrated, then you can continue the journey yourself. If you can feel that there's a lot of guilt and shame that's kind of been put into you. It sounds like your own voice, but it's actually not yours, and you can feel that every time you set even the smallest boundary, you are haunted. Maybe for days or weeks. A guilty conscience And am I voting too much? Or it almost feels like you're dying or that I'm being ostracized? You can just feel that it creates deep fear and deep anxiety. Then you can be pretty sure that you're right. That you've either had a very, perhaps violent upbringing and there's a lot of trauma that needs to be addressed, or that you have a very open system that has taken in a lot of other people's energy.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: So it's basically their voices and their frequencies that sound like your own. And here you can get help to clean out. We simply can, and I would like to help you with that. In other words, what I will do is that I will guide you in, and I will guide you into your situation, and you will be able to recognize it. You can accurately go into them and try to avoid the very cutting. It's very horrible when you feel the ones like that are met with some jabs, accusations and stuff like that. You are also wrong, and you are not allowed. And now you're too much and you're also selfish, and it's like they cringe every time a thought comes. Then it is. Then it's actually for those around you, and it's not safe. You may have had a father or a mother where you don't remember them ever saying these things to you, but they've thought it about you. They've ruminated on it, they've thought it and felt it and talked to others about it as they get older, so it's been in their field. Is it. If you have a higher frequency than your parents, then it's in you. It has simply become Exchange. You got to exchange it with them because you were a child, and that's how it is, and because they have been manipulative.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: They have not been honest. They've pretended that everything is fine, and then they've been slimy behind your back. And gossiped. And then it's been in your field. They haven't taken responsibility for theirs. They haven't gone up to you and said, “Oh, I'm sorry when you do this. But I feel this. Or when you don't come to these parties, it makes me really sad. And you can say. It's nothing personal, I just don't want to. Okay, I have to accept that we're different here. They haven't solved it. So they just go and hang up, and therefore there can be all sorts of things inside you that have nothing to do with you at all. It can be a huge relief to get hold of it. And the way to get hold of it is to sit or lie down with your eyes closed. And then I'm going to ask you to recall those thoughts and those feelings. The situations where these guilt shames come up. And here instead of trying to get out of it, which you will try to do because it's so uncomfortable to be in. Then I would ask you to surrender to it. The friction that's in it. And then I can see the energy in it.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Then I can help you clean it out. Then you'll be able to see if it's someone else's frequencies, and then you'll feel when it releases. You'll notice that it intensifies and becomes very uncomfortable extremely quickly. You can almost feel like you're going to throw up. It can physically hurt your stomach. It can physically hurt your heart. It can hurt your throat violently. It has affected all your chakras because there's like a slimy cake of other people's undigested low-frequency thoughts and feelings and projections of who you are and who they want you to be. You're supposed to be like that to satisfy me, so all their immaturity and sitting inside of you and having it cleaned out can be. It's like you know you've been joking around in a jungle and mud bath for six months, and then finally you get in the shower and those cakes get washed off. It's really nice. It's really, really uncomfortable. It's really, really uncomfortable at first. And then it gets really nice. There's actually something about being able to keep going. Then it cleans it out. Then you find out there might be other layers. Then you might realize that you feel an obligation to take care of these people. Very often there is one, and there may be old soul agreements that may be lying around. You can be entangled in coatings, which can be all kinds of relational.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: There may be old traumas, perhaps from previous lives where something unpleasant happened. You've been hooked up together. There can be all sorts of things underneath. All this strange guilt. Shame, mass. Could there be anything else? Then you take the next layer. Just like, God, I can't. You know, I just feel that I have to. I'm forced to take care of this person. Then we go in and work with it. What's in it? Do you even have an appointment, or is it tied to a trauma? If you have an appointment. Do you still want to have that soul deal? Then we can actually help you go higher and get your guides or get the answer intuitively. It's not even that you need to have a spiritual language. With guides. You will feel it. I help you illuminate you so you can feel the answer. Land in you in all the confusion, so that you end up having a release in you that says. Yes, this appointment actually needs to be taken care of. So I have to take care of my mom until she dies. But I find a way to be in it. Or no, I don't have a deal with her. Or I want to cancel it. She is her. I can feel that the most important thing for her is actually that she learns to stand on her own two feet.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: I no longer have to look after her. It has been mine. It was my job to look after her at one point. But I don't have to anymore. The answer will land in you. And there's nothing more fucking empowering than finding out that you have access to all these answers yourself. There is no human that can give you no clairvoyant that can give. I can't give it to you. But we can help each other shed light on what we get hold of. Landing in such a way that you just have no doubt about the answer right there. And it just is. Every time you end up in a place where something is confusing and painful. Something that disturbs you. Something that makes your mind race. Something that makes your stomach hurt. Something that gives you anxiety. Something that gives you fear. Every time we go into it. Like friction and working with it. And secondly. And that's the way you get out of those relationships, and that's by you finding your strength by figuring out who the hell you are and what you're about. So you get to clean out all these internalized voices. Which basically come from people who haven't figured out who they are and therefore have to cling to relationships in the hope of being happy or getting their needs met or whatever the hell it might be. So it was a long talk. About that?

  Sune Sloth: Yes. There are some concepts that I think we're going to mark and shed light on more traditional concepts. What is gaslighting? Sune Sloth. Yes, as I understand it, you have to unfold it. Well, it's actually that psychological reality is constantly being questioned. That is, the way you experience things is constantly being distorted, changed, made wrong. So if you stand in your own free will and say I would like to do that, and the other person knows, because they simply use this thing of distorting it, that's it. Do you agree with that? And what do you think?

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes, and that's also why diagnostic defenses are so difficult, because you want to do it all the time. It's not just about forcing the other person's reality into you. They do that too, but they will constantly question the reality you have. So it may be that you come and say something. Come on, that's not it. You're just anxious. It's completely misinterpreted, so it's extremely uncomfortable.

  Sune Sloth: Yes, it can go all the way to you being told that you're mentally ill or harmful to the children, right?

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes, and it can be very violent. Yes, it can be. And it can be so confusing that you actually have it. It could be that you've actually called a person, you've seen them standing with their hand in the cookie jar and taking a cookie they shouldn't take. You see it play out. And then you say. You steal a cake. And then within two minutes, the person has denied what you saw and blamed you for what happened. And it happens all the time, and it's very confusing because you have so little. I've just seen it. You have your hand in the cookie jar. No, I haven't. You're looking at it wrong. There's something wrong with you. You're hallucinating. We're way out there.

  Sune Sloth: Yes, and if you stick to your own point of view, it escalates.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes, yes, there have been threats. Yes, I'll tell everyone about how you are. And you shouldn't have the children. And you better believe I'll put a lawyer on you. And there's a lot of it, so it can be very violent.

  Sune Sloth: I guess you could say that in relation to making a plan, the energetic psychological work is also what is felt in the body. It's important to do in relation to being able to stand in situations where you're in front of the Family Court and someone suddenly tells you that you're mentally ill. Being able to stand in those situations. The person will also be skilled at lulling others into that reality, and you may be surprised that it's suddenly invented for the occasion, or it hasn't been there before. Or it's some vulnerability you've talked about way back that has nothing to do with anything and hasn't affected you for 10 years. And suddenly it becomes something that becomes a truth. And what's surprising is to be faced with someone who is so convinced that this is the case, even though there is not a shred of evidence that there is anything wrong with you.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Maybe we should introduce configuration. You might want to take it with you.

  Sune Sloth: Bouldering is a special way of lying, where you are convinced of your own truth, where lying is a conscious act. But only fabricating is actually talking yourself into believing what you say, and when you can fabricate, you are particularly convincing because you believe it yourself. You are extreme.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Convincing because you're convinced of what you're saying and it's pulled out of your ass. Yes, but it sounds insanely convincing.

  Sune Sloth: Yes, that's one of the things that I think, if you take Trump as an example. He gets talked into, when there's a case now here with different things, he gets talked into it being a witch hunt and that it's a political case etc. And when he's in it, he pushes his own consciousness to where he believes it's true. And that's why he's very convincing.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes, exactly.

  Sune Sloth: And maybe that's what makes the difference between the psychopathic and the narcissistic. The psychopathic has a self that is hidden, and then you project that role out with a kind of conscious power towards other people that you think you have the right to do so. But it's not the same thing. Narcissism, right? No, there you are. There you are that role. You are that person, you are convinced of that. That's your core value. You fight for it.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: That's actually the closest thing. The narcissist's one positive, which is also tricky. But your defense against the psychopath. They believe it themselves. They are convinced that the enemy image they have, again, that they are the victim, so they can't see it. And then there's a bit of a catch. Because for the most part, they have no idea what they're doing. That being said. The older they get, the more strange relationships, and the more breakups and the more workplaces they're screwed up in. And there will be more and more people pointing out that there's something here. Because it's kind of strange. So a little awareness is starting to emerge. The problem is they avoid that awareness. So it's as if, as soon as there's a small opening to go out. Maybe it's me, then they actually have to clamp down even harder on their configuration and their and the reality that they've built up. So that's also where you can say that what happens with narcissists, and those who have a lot of narcissistic defenses, they become more and more excruciating the older they get. Because they drive themselves deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper into this web. And then finally, it's like they're at war with everyone. They're at war on Facebook. They're at war with the state, and they're at war with X, and they're at war with family. There are so many points of conflict. It's fucking burning all over the place.

  Sune Sloth: I think it's also important to point out or draw attention to the fact that you can be surprised at how much they use others behind your back to spin stories, and you need to have a proactive stance. If you have a good feeling that they start attacking you at home-school interviews, you may actually have to start making a countermeasure, which means that you simply pull the school and the municipality and the whole shit in and continue to sit in their behavior without attacking them. But it takes this energy work because it's like it's not conscious, it's like they're trying to trigger you to be the role that they're accusing you of, that you lose your temper. You can't take care of the kids and you're incoherent and uncooperative. Yes, that is, it's not deliberate, but they will try to provoke by being so unreasonable, so fabricated, so mendacious. Are you? Eventually reacting appropriately because it's appropriate to get furious, angry, upset and break down when people behave like that towards you? And it's no good in a context where you're in public because they don't know you. No, they get it right and they see you at face value. So, in order to be able to stand in it, you actually have to be able to stand in filling out your field. Stand in your own power. You have to stand in a place where it doesn't trigger you. Where it's not internalized. Where it doesn't provoke you to stand in these situations. In front of the person. Because then they'll be right. They are right in what they claim by being so unreasonable. Also, the authorities are not prepared for this type of behavior. They are not.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Can't figure it out.

  Sune Sloth: They can't see through it. They don't understand what's happening. And they have.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Not enough data either. They don't know enough. They haven't followed over time. And because the person who has these defenses is so convincing. Yes, that's what it is. So it simply gets so muddy.

  Sune Sloth: Yes, and then what you have no power over is that the authorities say that there are conflictual relationships between the parents. And that affects the children. Because you can't. No matter how much you stand. Clean, calm, new cooperation. Then you can't control whether the other is creating conflict. And when you see it from the outside, they see two adults who are in conflict and can't work together, they can send you on a communication course and the other person can do everything right. Because if you take someone like that to therapy, they also know how to do it. You can follow the rules, but at the same time sneak in criticism. So you simply have to stand in your own reality in a way that doesn't violate the other person's free will and say Well, I take responsibility for the fact that I've had children with this person. That person sees things differently. There is free will to think that way, and the children are in a field where there are very different values. And that actually brings us to another aspect, which is that there are many parents you've talked to. But I also know some who end up gaslighting basically gaslighting the kids and giving. Well, that's also. It's also just mom or. But it could also be that she means well. But you can see that this parent is doing the same thing to the child as they are doing to you. Would you like to comment a little on what you do there?

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes. Because what it is, is that there will be one. A responsible one, especially in an empathetic parent. And that's because you're empathetic. So you don't have to be perfect, but it's just. Typically, there will be one. A person who is very narcissistic and narcissistic. Defense will typically not end up with another person. Who is very narcissistic because they can't. They just want to. They want to go into battle constantly. So they typically want to end up with someone who is more mature, who is more empathetic. There's more there. And has gotten used to taking care of an immature person, because then things fit together, because then the narcissistic one or the defensive one can be stroked by the hair. So you could say that the two of them can be attracted to each other, and that means that person. When you have a breakup like that, there will also be a “Puha, I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't. I can't. Even though I can see these patterns, for God's sake, I can't alienate the other person, because I'm not. I don't want to alienate the other person's parents from the children. I don't want to show this to the children. It may well be that you come to it in frustration and stuff like that, but that will be the initial thought of the other person. There's a little bit more. There will be someone who is more mature than the one with the very narcissistic traits, because two very immature people, they won't be able to be together for that long. It will explode like two three year olds. It's not going to work. Yeah, it's a shovel in the head, right? So then the most mature person in it will have a lot on their mind. Phew, my kids should also be allowed to love their parents, and they should have a relationship and all that. And that's damn good.

  Sune Sloth: This is the end. Episode 28 Part 1 Stay, put and listen part 2. If you think it's exciting.

  Sune Sloth: Hello listeners. We've written an extensive series of articles where we go into and unfold all the topics we unfold in this podcast in writing and in detail with a guide on our website. You can find the link in the description of the podcast or search for the model. Pause the effect and go to Resources and take a look at our article series on narcissism. There we cover all the concepts we talk about here in detail. We get into the defense mechanisms, gaslighting, configuring and many other things, and we also look at how to deal if you have a child with a person with very strong narcissistic traits. Happy listening. Here continues episode 28, part 2 on narcissism and how to deal with it. How to deal with it. Mette, you were talking about. How do you deal with this with the kids? Yes, we talked about how you can actually participate in gaslighting. In other words, the child's reality or the fact that the child is met in their reality and world is actually violated and becomes transgressive. And you can participate in that. Yes, you might. And it may be that in this way you actually end up breaking down the children in the same way that you are. They will doubt who they are and what they experience. Their own psychological reality will be challenged by that parent. Yes, what do you do there?

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes, you hit the mark. You hit an edge here when you, when you realize that you are in a relationship. In this example, because you've been in a relationship and had children with someone who has these diagnostic defenses. The first step in discovering it. There's a pain that you've been playing that game. Next, you're kind of like. Well, luckily that's just me. Of course my partner or ex-partner won't put their children through that because you love children unconditionally. That's the illusion. But it's like everyone gets through it. It almost seems to be a universal law. You can't bear for your children to be exposed to what you are. For a moment, you're sure that it's only you who will be exposed to it, because that's the way it is. I'm an adult and you know there's trouble and you know. That's the way it is. Until you realize that this person is playing these defenses against everyone. They're close and everyone can be used as a supply, ergo also the children.

  Sune Sloth: Yes, you can get it because it's so overwhelming for you. You can get the illusion that it's really you, even though you're affected by it because you're a man. Then you have that feeling that there must be something wrong with you, because that's actually the strange underlying message. Something wrong with you when you can't see it's like that, and I'm going to subject you to endless conversations that should end with you admitting that you can see that it shouldn't be done differently in the future, but it has nothing to do with you because they do it with everyone else.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Do it with everyone who comes close and allows the person to do it. Yes, even your children, your children, so there is one.

  Sune Sloth: But you can't say that the person also seeks out relationships where it's possible.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes, because the person can't use relationships. Typically, if the person doesn't have the opportunity to use a relationship for that, then the person will be very critical and slander that person and say he or she is just annoying. And you know, because he or she can feel that I can't get anything out of it. I can't get this person to where I need them to be, it happens subconsciously, so that means they will have a negative reaction to those people. This person is also just so mean. I also think it's just so cheeky, and I just think it's so snobbish. Or there will be all sorts of prejudices about some person they don't really know, because the person just doesn't give them a drop of themselves.

  Sune Sloth: Yes, or the person says they're arrogant or something.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes, yes, so it'll be like that thing where I can't get anything out of you, so you don't do what I say and I want ergo there's all sorts of things wrong with you. Well, well, well. So it's only those. It's only when you're going to monkey around and be understanding and listening and adapting. Then they stick to you like fire.

  Sune Sloth: Yes, so you could say that's how we can round off Simply here. Yes, the concept of simply can be anything. It can be financial resources, it can be access to your children. It could be access to your car, where you give yourself, and that's okay. You're a giving person, but you just realize that the moment you give in and give permission, it will be taken for granted in the future. And the moment you say you can't always borrow, you're in trouble. Yes, there's trouble. But it's also an energetic supply. So it's actually a sun fixed on your life force that you give away.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: And it's coupled with a lack of gratitude.

  Sune Sloth: Yes, that's true.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: It was just missing. There is no thank you. There isn't a sincere gratitude for what you offer with the expectation that there is a little one. There's a little child who just wants their needs taken care of by the person who is dissociated from the person they can't connect with, and who constantly needs security and things. So there is one. That's why there's an entitlement that the person doesn't even realize they're acting out. There is no gratitude for what you give. They just want more.

  Sune Sloth: So lack of gratitude is a key indicator. The fact that it's expected. And as soon as you might see that all the steps you've taken by stretching, it's taken for granted. The moment you start to pull it back a bit, then a lot of problems start to arise.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Then you're selfish, and you're also just so full of yourself.

  Sune Sloth: You break agreements, which is why I don't want to help you. A collaboration can arise around the children where you've agreed to deliver things on time, for example, and then they slack off and don't really show up or contribute with what was agreed. And then when you withdraw or point it out, or even say okay, as long as you keep all the agreements, I don't care. And then you suddenly realize that agreements can't be kept either. It's like they're looking for the slightest excuse to avoid responsibility. Yes, exactly. And any attempt to stretch is either taken for granted or not. And if it's not, then there's criticism.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: And it can be criticism in words, or it can be criticism in behavior. Coldness. You get frozen out. I'm not talking to you. Or I pretend that you have a feeling that you've been talked about in the corners. There are different ways to punish you. Basically to get back to the kids.

  Sune Sloth: I just want to say something about supply. The children are actually the supply. Yes, they are. And they can play into your worldview that now I'm a mom and it's my role in life to be the sun of life. Yes, and if they don't, if they start to become independent, then a problem arises.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes.

  Sune Sloth: It does, because independence is a bit like when you're faced with a person. Narcissism that you actually have to invent your own independence. Exactly.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: So there will be trouble. What's interesting is that a person with strong narcissistic traits can do it. Can do it well. It's as if it seems to be easier for them to be a parent. The younger the child is. So the more spontaneously the child gives off plasma, so runs into the arms of mom and dad. You know, because they're helpless, so they surrender into it easily. And you have some kind of power. At that moment, there starts to be an independent voice. And they are no longer necessarily equal. They don't want to eat your cake and they don't want to. They don't want to go to a café with you. They don't want to go out and play soccer or whatever. And you can see the person getting more and more uptight. I can't have it at all, because it's as if I'm staying. The person is not confirmed that they are worth something. You know, the whole thing. Because the person has no contact with themselves with narcissistic traits. So the person has to constantly put aside or equate being worth something with people accepting what they give. So if you reject. No, I don't want to try to knit me something. Or no, I don't want you to bake me a cake or no, I don't need anything or. No, I don't need to borrow the summer house or whatever the hell it might be. Then you can see that they become like a lemon. Because your rejection of them is everything. Goes in as a rejection of them.

  Sune Sloth: They take it personally. As if it has something to do with them.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes, exactly. And it's here, because there's a lack of attachment, so they actually find it extremely difficult to relate. They find it extremely difficult to be with. They have a hard time forming a relationship. So it all runs on some external parameters. So that's also typical. Very aware of the external framework. It's not so much about how you are together. They can't really figure that out. They know how to be in it. They trigger all the time, and it's very much in the external environment. And when kids then everyone else starts to think it's not important to them or rejects them. And shit, there can be trouble, because then there is. And then there starts to be a control thing. And here there's a huge risk that it's like they're doing a configuration. That the reason why the child reacts. It's because the other parent alienates and alienation.

  Sune Sloth: Would you like to expand on that?

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes. And it's not.

  Sune Sloth: Parental injection syndrome.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes, exactly. And that's alienation. It's a hot potato, because you have to deal with it in relation to assessment in court cases. And that's also the problem. That's what's really, really difficult. That's what you can see. What is.

  Sune Sloth: Alienation?

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Alienation is that when you alienate, it's something like saying something bad about the other parent to your children. It's like you're constantly saying Daddy is like this mom and that mom, and mommy doesn't love you and all the time. And you do it because you want to bond the child closer to yourself. You're interested in whether it's either consciously Are you more of a psychopath if it's unconsciously narcissistic, so you're interested in keeping the child close to you and the other parent just needs to get out of the picture, so you start planting some things in the child to pull the child close. That the child rejects the other parent, and there you can find.

  Sune Sloth: Destructive behavior towards the relational is violent.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Destructive.

  Sune Sloth: But isn't that also what they will actually do in relation to friends, family and colleagues?

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes, yes, that's it. That's all of it.

  Sune Sloth: Slanders and destroys your relationships with other people.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: They do it, because they do it for us, because they're afraid they'll lose relationships, if they do it to try to keep the relationships themselves by pushing the other person out, so you can say what shines. They are so afraid that someone will talk badly about them that they talk badly about you first.

  Sune Sloth: So you have to expect them to actually proactively anticipate and initiate. When you start setting your boundaries, this will unfold. Yes, definitely.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: I would say it's inevitable. So now you actually have to be able to relate, and that's also why the energetic work is really important. You can have so much fear on it, and you can have so much that you're hit on your sense of justice and rightfully so. And you can have so much anger, frustration and the fact that you have to deal with them. The thing about just getting such an energetic stabilized within that is what can happen here. It's this thing where you can feel complete. It can be completely crazy for you to experience if you start to have a feeling that people are starting to take sides with someone who seems like it's like this because the person believes what he or she is saying. And it's like you're watching a horror show and you can't do anything about it, and that's it.

  Sune Sloth: It just collapses quietly and quietly.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Calm, where I've seen. Unfortunately, I've seen many times that it's gone mega much fish I've seen. I've seen the most mature parents reach out to the municipality and reach out to a psychologist. Reach out for help because what the hell am I doing here? The kids got caught in this, we can't get any help, where it ends up shooting. The target is aimed at them, that they are the ones who are completely off. And I've seen some people lose their children to this. They started to ask for help, but the second it gets a little spin, they end up losing their children. I've seen this many times. But I've also seen the interesting thing is that I've also seen that by actually working intensively with a person who is in such a situation and constantly coming to stand in their own power and being able to hold their own. Well, she's allowed to say that. I have a different perspective. You know, standing firmly on your own reality. And thus constantly staying in your own field in relation to the people in the municipality. That over time, it's actually the narcissistic person who creates so much drama that they can see it. Yes, they can see it. Because when you don't trigger, you don't contribute to the noise. The hard part is not triggering, because you become you.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: It's extremely disgusting to be the one who suddenly says You, you. You're also just mentally ill or throwing something in your face or something you said 10 years ago or something. You also said you didn't like your son. You're a bad mom. Or what the hell do I know? Something you know. And all of a sudden it comes in. And it can come in from a person who has good intelligence and is articulate, so it can come in in a way where you know where you know that. It's a lie. You know it's a lie. But, but you can't say that. Because then they can't tell who's lying. So you have to let them lie. You have to let them run their drama, and then you have to stand firm in your own perspective without trickery and being landed energetically. It's hard, but I've only seen that when I've been allowed to follow cases over time. That at some point they change it. It's as if. At some point, those municipal people are looking. What the hell is going on over there? And the word narcissist is not mentioned. If he said Never call my ex a narcissist, never say that. Don't ever give me half-assed diagnoses like that. It only makes it worse.

  Sune Sloth: Self or not. Be very careful not to say that in the network.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: It doesn't do any good. It does. It only makes it worse, because it's typical. What you do.

  Sune Sloth: Is going to play a role of you are going to.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Be reactive.

  Sune Sloth: Yes.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: But I've seen cases land very, very beautifully. Even without it being the person who has been accused of it. Because the problem is saying to a person who has the last trait that they have. It's no use, because the person won't look at it. So it doesn't help anything.

  Sune Sloth: In relation to what you say to the children. It's like. What kind of psychologist was that? It's like I said. And it was actually a bit of an awakening in relation to the fact that you actually have to inform the children about not having a diagnosis, because we can't allow that either. No, no, no, no, no.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: No, no, no, no, no.

  Sune Sloth: And my background is not psychologist either. I have an MSc. In Social Science and Communication. I've read up on this, and unfortunately I have some personal experiences that were very violent, which I draw on. That's my background. And I've guided people through this. But, but it just has to be taken for what it is. Personal perspective In my case, where you have more of a psychological background and many hours of counseling.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: But I don't want to diagnose, right? And I never will. I wouldn't say that someone should tell another person that they're a narcissist. You should refrain from that.

  Sune Sloth: I just think it's important to say that when we talk about narcissistic defenses versus being a narcissist. Now we have to say it. A defense is if you're a narcissist, you're always in it. Yeah, that's the difference. Exactly. Then there's nothing else. Yes, then it's not something you can tap out of. That's what it is.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: That happens when you and when you have the defense. That is, some people will be. The person is not always like that. And if they're not triggered, it's not always. Because in other areas, they're not like that. Then there may be a few. Then there may be some specific areas where it plays out, and that's the difference.

  Sune Sloth: Yes, and you become impossible to drill down into your point of view.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Exactly.

  Sune Sloth: Exactly. But what it was, was where I think. Yes, someone came up with this. No, it was. It was as if someone actually said it.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: That's right. Yes, that's right.

  Sune Sloth: Yes, and if you sit and think we want to know more about this, then the guard is interesting. The novel is interesting. There's a checklist in the book of the novel where you could actually sit down and say Well, if everyone saw so and so many of these. It's a recognized checklist, is present. Then there's probably something to it. But it's actually the surprising point of view that you have to inform the children that this is how mom or dad is, and it will happen, and we need to be able to talk openly about it. In a way that relates to reality.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: And you relate to the behavior. Not to say that they have narcissistic defenses. But if the child comes and says So it happened, and then it happened, and at some point they spontaneously open up about something that has been difficult. And that's when we can get to gaslighting saying Well, it probably wasn't that bad. Mom probably meant well. Or maybe dad was a little worried or something. And if you have another parent that you you you you collaborated with an x where you. Where you like that, because we can all scold each other a little bit. But if you have a parent that you trust deeply and yes, there were probably some issues, then it's the right thing to do in the end. I'm sure he meant well, but you'll land again, and then you pick up the phone. Hey, there's a little bit here. Don't you want to? You should probably be.

  Sune Sloth: I often find.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Get out of it together. It's the most beautiful collaboration.

  Sune Sloth: A common standpoint. You can't do that with them. No, you can't.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: It's not possible.

  Sune Sloth: Actually, you have to pull yourself out of sharing with them and sharing how you handle things. It doesn't get less the better, but you don't see that the person is wrong. You say Well that's the one, I have a different point of view. I think this. So if the person that he is a narcissist. Pushes them into sports, for example, in a way that the child doesn't like, then you can have a different point of view. Well, you're allowed to choose your own sport or I think I would never show up and cheer you on or scold you or let you have this role so that it can reflect on me. Then you're actually describing the behavior without saying what's going on. Exactly. Or you have the right to choose to feel what's right for you. And really be incredibly careful not to intrude on the child. You should of course set boundaries and hold on to things, but don't push your way into their own perception of reality. They are allowed to feel. Yes, because that's what they're not allowed to do when they're constantly being squeezed. Imagine a bubble where everything is squeezed into the field. Pushing things in through criticism. Through underlying. You can feel that it's not good enough. You know what I mean. They actually need a special kind of gentle care around their own experience of developing a reality of how things are. Because they will be hypersensitive to that intrusion? Yes, they will.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: And that's also what. You can easily. Do the opposite of gaslighting, confirm them in their reality. Because when your child comes and tells you if they open up about the situation with the other parent, and you know exactly what it's like to be in that situation. You know exactly what that parent is going to be like when that worldview cracks and they get angry and they push in and they keep pushing and they keep pushing and they wear that person down and they keep pushing and they follow. A new mom followed me and I go into the room. I don't do that because then she comes after me too, you know, and you, you've been there. You know what it's like to be there and it's absolutely horrible. You get tired until you surrender to saying Okay, I'll take your shit. You can't fix it, but what you can do is say Yes honey, I know, I know what it's like when mom and dad, mom and or dad are like that. I've tried that too.

  Sune Sloth: And it feels and it feels.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: So disgusting. And it's not really what you really feel when it feels so disgusting. Period. And here it may also be that the child then asks me What should I do? It may actually be that the older the child gets and starts asking you for advice on how to deal with this and that, you can actually start saying you can do this. What should I do then? And sometimes it's good to say, “Well, if it gets too bad, call me and I'll come and get you. And of course, this can be a challenge if there's a visitation arrangement and the state office has been involved and it can cause trouble, because then she's there again. So you also have to think about what can it give Rebekka? Because you might not be able to. It may well be that if it's like that, if you are, if you don't have the residence and you come and pick it up, it can cause all kinds of trouble. Then of course you have to. You have to compare it to your own situation.

  Sune Sloth: If there's a visitation arrangement and you break it, that's visitation harassment. Yes, and it could be used against you if the other person makes a case out of it. And you could lose contact with the children, or at least a large part of the contact. So you really have to. You really have to watch out for that one. That one.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: And very often I would say the person who is most narcissistic has made sure to get the residence and you have, and you've given in because you knew you couldn't get away without it. That's very often the case.

  Sune Sloth: I would not recommend that you break down. No, no, no.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: No, no. That's also why I say it with that in mind.

  Sune Sloth: Yes, but the bottom line is this. It can be incredibly painful to get the child back, who is completely run down after being beaten up in that way, because the child reaches a point where it begins to express its own independence. And they shouldn't be allowed to do that. It has to be at the other parent's whim. And it's not just what they do. It's also continuing to be pressured into having a certain attitude towards things.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: It can be anything. It can be anything. The person has to say what clothes they should wear, what kind of friends they should have, which boyfriends they should have, what they should eat, what they shouldn't eat.

  Sune Sloth: Violent interference in the other person's freedom and worldview and way of being in the world. And that's yes. And the children will be in a supply, so it's really going to be something that exists for the other person for the sake of the parents. In terms of supporting them to be good parents, to do the right thing in life and make the right life choices and so on.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: This is also why narcissistic women can actually act in such a way that they are quite interested in having a lot of children. But they're not really interested in children. They can't. They don't do anything, they don't sit with the children, they don't read them. They're not reading, but they're interested in having them because it's a supply. So it's like you think like that. Why do you want more kids? You have all kinds of conflicts with the ones you already have, and you know your relationships are messing with it, like you need more. It's like you need more.

  Sune Sloth: Yes, we have. We have. We've defined gaslighting, we've talked about it.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: We may actually have been.

  Sune Sloth: Inside the supply chain some important concepts. Are there others?

  Mette Miriam Sloth: I thought that was the one where we might leave some hanging, because I think that's actually one of the hardest things for parents. It's actually what you just mentioned in relation to getting the children back, and you can see that they've been run over. So what do you do? Help your children?

  Sune Sloth: Yes, it is.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: One of the things I've seen that has worked best over time, because some people have a bit like that. I just need to get my child away from your parents, and in some cases it can be when I have some women or mostly women, but also a few. But it's always gone in. I go in and align with them because they have. You have a gut feeling about the degree of how dangerous, how dangerous is this person in their unconscious behavior? How risky and destructive is this person? Your gut feeling is typically pretty spot on. It can just be walled off into everything. So what I try to do when I first counsel people is to say okay. How worried are you about this? And right most of the time. Typically there's a pretty spontaneous response. Is it that I can see that you're broken? And I get sad and everything else that I'm not. I don't worry about that. Per person gets killed. I'm not worried about the person getting beaten. You know, we can go into all the worries at dinner. We're more into that one. You could say it's narcissist coming out of psychological violence. That's what it is. We just have to say that. And then once we have clarified that, because of course, if there are sometimes, there's a good movie. I'm actually worried that the person might get out there. Or take drugs or can get into a psychotic state and actually get into a fight or something.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Then there's the risk of physical violence. Then there's something about getting the child away. Yes, we're in the realm of psychological control and psychological violence and psychological pressure. Many people will have the feeling that, fuck, this is unpleasant and shut up, I want to spare my child from this. And that's also when we unpack them more, often. But if I go in and intervene. Taking my child out? That's not the first thing. It's not certain that I would get through in a court case, because the child must also have access to their other parent. And plus it may also be that if the child is not allowed to gain awareness about it and be empowered to see the parent themselves over time purely and not be lulled into manipulation, then you may well end up getting a child out who turns against you at some point. Just like why won't you let me see my parents? The other parent, if the child has not understood and understood this. So you also have to. You're actually also in a situation where you can't really allow yourself to pull a child out because it's a parent of your child. So one of the best things you can do is actually support the child and pick them up when they come back.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: And I would actually say that some of the energetic work can also be done, because a lot can have built up in the stomach. Things are being crammed in, and your self-esteem is being pushed and you're not, you're wrong and you have to. You have to be forced to do this. You have to go along with this. I don't have the desire. You have to as a mom and dad. What a hassle, what the hell can it be? It can cause some pain, especially in the stomach. So you can say I don't have the energy and abilities, but sometimes you can actually help the child get a sense of where it is in the body? In the US, when you come back and just have a stomach ache? He would put his hand on and say try to breathe down here. So it's just about increasing body awareness. You know, because there are different parts of the body that are affected by this. And then it's actually about helping them strengthen the connection to their own reality by just saying yes. I know that when mom or dad does that, it's deeply uncomfortable. So they are They are strengthened in the fact that this is right, and at the same time you also do the thing where you are not completely compensating for the other person. But you are very little. You have the right to choose to the extent possible.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: You can't choose to go to school, but there are some other things you actually let them investigate. This This free space for free will as a child. What am I allowed to choose for myself? And you talk to them about it. Just like that. I couldn't choose whether you wanted to go to school. But you know extracurricular activities. You have that yourself. Decide your free time. And you know, so you start talking to them about these things. Then you actually have to stand with your children for a period of time and realize that it's really hard for them to go from two homes where there are such different realities. It's really hard for the kids. The problem is that if you're in pain about it, you start to adapt to the other. But dad won't like that, so now we have to do this. Or you know mom will be a pain in the ass if we do it like that now. You'd better do it now. You try to adapt all the time to get the few. As if to say, we have to reconcile that the child doesn't live in two different realities. Then you actually start submitting to the way that the other parent lives and you're actually trying to move away from that. So you're just getting there. You actually have to stand in that sometimes the child feels torn 10.

  Speaker3: 20.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Years have to go for two different ones. Especially in the Change Day can cry and be in pain, and I can't stand it because it's violent. It's actually something you could stand in compassion and be there for your child. I would say a situation like this too.

  Sune Sloth: If you're affected, I would recommend that you either work with it yourself or seek help to deal with it.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes, exactly.

  Sune Sloth: Because it can be very, very hard, and there's a risk that the child will be rolled into the other person's reality in such a way that they distance themselves from it. That can happen.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: That that fear will be in you, and it's actually something about getting that fear up and integrating it into you. Yes, actually, I would say to actually come.

  Sune Sloth: You could say that you've had a child with this person, and that's actually the consequence of not being and having been conscious at the time. Yes, so it's not your fault, but it's a consequence of what has happened. Yes, and it has. The consequence is that your child has to go through this maturing and learning, learning that is inherent in it. The alternative is if you pull it out later or in the situation. I'd rather be with the other person, or.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Don't tell me what to see the other parent. Dad was right too. You have. You've always said you hate him, or you know something, right? Yeah, I do. It becomes extremely confusing for the child.

  Sune Sloth: There is a maturation journey that is possible for the child here, which means that the child can be extremely strong afterwards. Sune Sloth. So there is also an opportunity. And yes, there is also a risk and risk here. And you have to be able to stand in that. Exactly.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: You have to be able to handle that.

  Sune Sloth: You have to be able to face that. And if you can't, then. Because then it's a great choice. You have to come from a place of calm inside, where there is clarity. So that means, do you go all the way with a cause and try to draw the kids to you? Or do you do something dramatic like come and get them or something? Then you have to stand in a very clean place. Where you don't stand in fear and realize what kind of consequences you're taking a chance on. Exactly.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: As you are ready to take whatever comes in the process. You are actually now. You have to have a pretty clear risk assessment if I. If my child calls and is deeply unhappy, and I assess that it's better that I pick up. Then you still need to have you. You need to think about the parent you are picking up from. What is the risk of that happening? You know, if you don't have a residence? What is the risk of that? It may well be that if you assess with parental orders. You can see that if I do that, it creates so much trouble.

  Sune Sloth: A residential parent is not allowed to do that either. Sune Sloth: No, no. Another thing that's important is to be extremely clear about what you have the right to decide for yourself when the child is with you. And you may well be pressured by the other person trying to interfere in everything.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: But you will be pressured, you will.

  Sune Sloth: You will be pressured. And here it's something about rejecting it. It's a bit like what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. That what would naturally happen is that you share. You talk together, you try to reconcile, you try to find common rules or agree on how to deal with hobbies or the child's hobbies.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Diet and supplements and everything you.

  Sune Sloth: Know. But in this case, you have to do something else. You actually have to figure out, what do you have to agree with the other parent about? And what do you have? Can you do without involving the other? And the things that we've found out by simply going into it is that there are extracurricular activities to take it. Under the current legislation, the residential parent can register the child, but cannot require the contact parent to take the child to the leisure activity. That may be if you have cut off all other attempts to interfere. Then it will be a battleground that can arise. But there isn't. It's not visitation harassment or wrong for you to say Well, we'll do something else during that time. The child stays with me, even though the other parent has signed them up for sports. So that's an example. The other parent can't interfere. They can, but they don't have the right to interfere in what the child has done. They don't have the right to interfere with what clothes the child is wearing, of course, should be your care, but if the child wants to wear something else that they like that the other parent doesn't like for whatever reason, then they actually don't have the right to interfere. And those are some of the places where you have to stand firm. There will be a number of things. Can you think of other things? They don't have the right to interfere with screen rules, for example.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: No, they can have no. It is actually. It's actually. That they actually have to. They should actually just stay out of it. And.

  Sune Sloth: They have the right to interfere. So the custodial parent has. Has the right to take the initiative on treatments and go to the doctor. So if you disagree. There, then problems can arise. So if you are the residential parent, you have the right to take the child for treatment and to the doctor without asking the other parent. Yes, but if you're a visiting parent, you don't have that right. And then you have to inform if something happens. And enter into a dialog with the other parent. Yes, according to the current law. Yes, so you have to, if you know this. Someone like the authorities will use everything against you. A small mistake, it's something about being very, very clear and knowing what your rights are, but also sticking to the two key words, which are also in classic Don't explain yourself and don't answer. Don't explain, don't defend. It can be extremely difficult, but if you notice this trait when you keep getting texts or emails that keep trying to clarify clear explanations. Then it's really just a matter of not explaining yourself. But if it triggers your system that you feel you have to explain yourself, you have to defend your choices. Then you're trapped.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: An email that you know clutters your consciousness for days.

  Sune Sloth: And you feel like you can't end the communication because you have to come up with a response. Then you're also trapped psychologically in your energy system, you're trapped. This means that the other person can rattle off, so the other person gets a hold of your system, so you become insecure. You can't stand in and end the communication and let it go. It can be extremely difficult work to get to a place where it doesn't affect you.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: But it is possible.

  Sune Sloth: It is possible. Absolutely it is.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: There's actually another interesting thing here. We need to round it up, because I think it's universal. When we have a person with these defenses and or full-blown narcissist, and that's one of the reasons why you keep trying to cooperate, so you want to cooperate with someone else. With parents who don't have these defenses, where you know where it all comes together and then a little twist, you get it done. It's actually also to try to protect your children. Because what happens when you start to stop saying no, they're not going to say no to sports or I'll find out. That's none of your business. And no, you don't go down to the school and bring stuff in the same week. Don't come and pick up the child unless you agree with me, whatever the hell it is you say. I'm not going to explain it because I don't have that, I'm not going to argue with you, or you start setting these boundaries, that's what's going to happen. It's the frustration that lies in the other parent in terms of gaining control. So that you don't that there is no control over the child, which is supply. I can access because you start like one card at a time. And no, we're not, we're not. We're not going to meet once a week and have dinner together because I don't like it. It's on, so we're just going to get on each other's nerves, the child shouldn't be exposed to that. We can't. It can't be solved. I don't want to fix it. You're just starting to speak up about what's been going on. So the more you pull out, the more that frustration will need control. So that aggression and that's what's embedded in the system that the person can't figure out how to deal with. Need to straighten out, then the child will start to be questioned. It will be directed at the child.

  Sune Sloth: Now there will be a questioner, so there.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Is a questioner. How much to eat? How much screen so how much sugar? What do you want? How much were you at grandma and grandpa's, or whatever the hell it is that the other parent triggers on and will try to have the child not to. How much sport do you play? You didn't play a lot of sports depending on what the parents, as you know, have beliefs about how it should be done. You were late to bed and late to rise and everything. You were in school and doing homework and all that. So that means you've actually had the conversations to prevent the child from getting it. And here you actually have to be able to cope with the child starting to get the blows. And it's violent, because you can see the child is being torn around in loyalty. You actually have to do it anyway, because if you hold it, you will be eaten. Then you can help your child. You can't fill, you can't fill your field with power.

  Sune Sloth: And when the child also gets rolled in as a supply, because you have to drive it all the way out. You have to be loyal to the other parent.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: When you have to do something all the time, because the other parent is constantly trying, can't, can't, can't accommodate not having access to the child, so you constantly have to be so. And it also feels, and every time you have to be with the other parent, you get completely drained, but you feel that you have to have Christmas. You have to do those things. If you have a parent with these clear traits, you don't want to be with them because it's never nice. It's never nice, and you know that.

  Sune Sloth: And that thing about giving in. It can be. It can be difficult, but it can also be very liberating, because that tense atmosphere, it just has to be done in the right way.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: And the child must not be a little more happy for you, because that person can't handle it.

  Sune Sloth: Examines you too much, then the other person triggers and you know things like that. Or it's not done in the right way, and I would say that. It's actually a free space you create every other Christmas or whatever it is.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes, exactly like New Year, and.

  Sune Sloth: The child will be exposed to the other person being desperate about, for example, what about birthdays, what about Christmas, and how am I going to manage alone and stuff like that? And you have to hold on to that if you want to. But it's hardest in the beginning and at some point, the other person understands that you won't give in. So it's actually very much about the other person understanding. You don't give in and you don't explain yourself, you don't justify yourself. You don't get into arguments. You don't get nasty either. You don't say anything nasty to them either. You just are. Well, that's how I do it. And it's best that we keep it separate. You can say, “There have been many conflicts, and it's been difficult, and that's that. That's the best thing, I think, and I'm sticking to that.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: We do things very differently, and there must be room for that. So it's better that we divide it up.

  Sune Sloth: And you have the right to have it divided, and if conflicts arise about it, you can go to the Family Court and make sure you get an agreement where it is divided. And they will usually support that.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: They will. They will clearly investigate if there is conflict and if there are problems and you come and say so. It's better for the child that it's divided up so that there's room for the parents to do what he or she wants. And I can do it the way I wanted to. It's much better, and the child won't be exposed to conflict. They will always support that.

  Sune Sloth: So you could say it's a double-edged sword, this thing about the other one creating conflicts because they see it, then there are conflicts between both parents, and they are the authorities. It takes two to tango. It's like they don't understand that one can cause conflict for both because they look at the child and they see two parents not cooperating and then they're basically accusing those parents. Immature ones can't handle it, but they will, from the cases we've seen, support when there's a conflict situation. That it is divided up, and they will support that the communication that is between the parents is primarily of a practical nature, and that is. You'll have the system on your side when you're not throwing in all sorts of conversations about the child's well-being, so.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: You don't accuse the other?

  Sune Sloth: No, as long as you don't accuse the other person, you can actually use this high level of conflict to say that it's best we keep it separate, because it's best for the child, and it's also best for the child. It's best for the child, but you can actually use it as leverage. And that means that it's the other person who continues to create conflict. You can't see that there is conflict between us, so I would suggest that the best thing is that we make clear agreements written down in a public context. And the better the clear agreements, the better the collaboration will go and you will have to eat it. That you take co-responsibility to a third party for it not working in terms of communication. Exactly.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: It can feel deeply unfair, but you have to do it because if you start blaming and saying you're a narcissist and you can't and it's all your fault, then the mess comes. It always gets messy, so.

  Sune Sloth: We have to hold on to that. Yes, I can see from the outside that there is a high level of conflict, and that's how it is. So it's best to divide it up and not interfere in each other's parenting. You can do that. You can do that, and you can get help from the authorities. But if you sit and break down, they may question whether you can fulfill your part of that role. Exactly, and that's where you need to have been in your system. And it's one thing to face that person who is constantly accusing you and constantly making you doubt or trying to make you doubt yourself. Constantly insinuating that you're not a good, caring parent or something is wrong with you. That's one thing. But to face a lawyer and a child expert or face school teachers or municipal people who are actually there to help and then face that pressure from a group. You have to stand that for a while until it starts. Until it becomes clearer and clearer that the conflict is starting up. Because if you start a process, which in principle you could do yourself, they won't sit and read the correspondence. They won't know anything. So they start from scratch. So if you meet with them many times together with the other parent, a history will build up. And if you stand for clear agreements and you stick to them. But the other parent persists, but you don't blame the other parent. Then a pattern starts to emerge. It does. And then it's just them. At some point there will be slip ups. And not because they have to see the other person as bad. But it's an argument for standing in the fact that we are in different places and there is conflict.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes, exactly.

  Sune Sloth: But you must never play the victim role and say, well, I've tried to do everything right, and then the other person does too.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Take it.

  Sune Sloth: You'll get upset. Always take the child's side and say Well, that's too bad, we have to work on it. I will also do my best and continue to do so.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes, or it's a shame that we conflict when we're together. As mature people, we have to take responsibility for that when we divide it up. These are mature choices.

  Sune Sloth: And you can find support in the public sector.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: They will definitely support it.

  Sune Sloth: Yes, so far the school is calling you and saying maybe it is. What are you thinking? Is it best we share? School home conversation up to avoid conflict? You can do that.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes, exactly. And that's actually also something you need to be aware of. That's where it gets really difficult with people with these defenses. You have to think that I would also recommend that you do that. That you exhaust yourself when you sit down, and then you write down all the worry thoughts that come up in relation to the collaboration. And it may be Let's say you have a 7-year-old confirmation. It may not be for another 7 or 65 years. But trust me, you're worried about it. It could be planning Christmas, and it's good you're writing all those. It could be fuck you right now. There's the handover at school or at the daycare center we have scheduled when we don't see each other. What if your vacation day off? You know where I have to deal with that person. What time does it happen because you're right? Just agreeing on what time of day on a day off can get messed up and it can go awry. It can be so difficult just to make a tiny little agreement, because something like you said And it's not, And you said three o'clock and no ten o'clock, it says that. No, it doesn't. It doesn't.

  Sune Sloth: We usually do. You've also once handed in something. Sune Sloth: Exactly. So it's about getting as few points of contact with them as possible. Yes, and it's hard. And it's always the hardest, you know. But think 10. Christmas forward. Think 10 deliveries, 20 deliveries ahead. Yes, can it be handed in at school? Avoid it Conflict Can it? Can it be written down and made into a clear framework? Fine Can it? Can it be done? Can you avoid having to deal with Christmas together for the next 10 years, where you know the other person will be mean to the kids, and you have to stand and try my empathy and balance it so that it's still a relatively nice Christmas. All things being equal, it's not worth it.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes, or you know that you will be exploited, and you will be exploited in a way where it's either you who always pays the bill or hosts the party, or that the other person or you always have to come over to the other person. Because that's the only way that person can put up with it. You know, that one. You will always be the one you have to give in order to maintain the idyll of things being nice.

  Sune Sloth: At some point, the other person will stop fighting for this because it has been fruitless. And then you have 10 wheels forward that you can.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Create in your own way or.

  Sune Sloth: Something where you can create your own framework and do it in the way that you can start unfolding your own parenthood, and then you actually start to find out okay, God, who am I really? How am I with my kids when I'm not under criticism? Am under little sarcastic comments and little innuendos, and it kind of lurks. It's lurking that you're not as good a parent as the other one.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: That you don't care as much and you know that you care about the child, or you're not as much or whatever it is to.

  Sune Sloth: Reinventing yourself as a parent. Find out how do I relate to your child? We've talked a lot about children, and I don't know if we can say in relation to other types of relationships. Yes, I would say that you can get to a place in your system where you can deflect on a person. You can sense in advance if they have that. Yes, there aren't very many of them. But where you're able to navigate around them without them really realizing you're doing it. But you have to have been there. You have to have been through the trenches and been beaten up, patched up and then found out Okay, you really get a sixth sense that this is one of those that you really have to be careful not to get involved in. Yes, and you can get good at that if they don't have a history with you and steer clear of them without them triggering you. Yes, and then steer clear of the people who are their hangarounds, who are somehow rolled into it. Yes, you can do that. Yes, you can do that.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: You can smell them from afar, and that's it.

  Sune Sloth: The result is that you get ninja skills in socializing in relation to that particular problem.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Are you insane?

  Sune Sloth: But that's what it takes. That was one of the benefits of going through it. It's that you can sense that now there's one of them who. Yes, there is. And if you, if you stay in the background and see how they interact, and then you can, you can actually avoid getting into relationships with people like that in the future. And that. What is the long-term perspective in relation to this?

  Mette Miriam Sloth: So what do you think in relation to?

  Sune Sloth: I'm thinking that if people in groups started doing this instead of one person saying no and the group getting confused and turning against them? Or don't really know what's going on, or try.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Staying neutral. You can't stay neutral neutral.

  Sune Sloth: For example, if the other person is deceiving you. Or or or or slanders you.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Because if you stay neutral, you listen. Slander without speaking up. And then you've been rolled in. You have to take a stand.

  Sune Sloth: So that's the problem right now. I think the problem with humanity right now is that there's too high a degree of complacency in discomfort over conflict. Yes, but if there are more people who speak up at the same time and stick to their guns without going after the person, then we have a new place to operate from. We're just not there yet. If you tell this to friends or girlfriends or people who haven't experienced it directly. They can't understand the psychological, emotional impact. So they will relativize it. In this way on the one hand. On the other hand. And I also need to hear the other person's perspective. And that's also a sensible way to approach things. Just in this case.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Case with this case.

  Sune Sloth: In this case, you will get, they will be rolled in, so you will. The moment you start to detach, you'll find that someone who you thought was loyal and who wanted you or cared about you. They stand by their neutrality, which is basically that they don't stand up for their own value and what they see.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes, yes exactly.

  Sune Sloth: It means that there are people around you who fall away. So there's a little domino thing that's in it.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: And that's for sure.

  Sune Sloth: You can talk to people who know it from the inside, so they know very well how unpleasant it is, but it's invisible to others who haven't experienced it.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Yes, it is. They don't understand the packaging of it at all. No, they don't.

  Sune Sloth: It is. It's a form of psychological violence. Well, it is. And can we define psychological violence a little more precisely? When you look it up on different what can you say forms Dannevirke. Some of these. Public places is a slightly varying description, but in this context What is psychological violence?

  Mette Miriam Sloth: This one definitely consists of gaslighting, gaslighting and control. Yes, you don't have the right to be who you are. You're constantly forced to be something that matches the other person's needs, which they don't take on, but which projects an image that you have to fulfill. You have to live up to the fact that the other person feels a certain way. And then, of course, psychological violence is when the person slanders you. Exposing yourself in a group is psychological violence. It is psychological violence to expose you to coldness, that is, to ignore you or otherwise push you out of the group. You can do this in many ways without saying a single word. It's also psychological violence and manipulation and psychological violence.

  Sune Sloth: And it's the pain of psychological violence that those who haven't experienced it don't understand. It's the uncertainty that arises inside you. The pain, the anxiety, the fear of what might happen. A guilty conscience, you feel. Now I'm doing it well enough. All that stuff. They don't want to take that into their system either. When you try to share it. And therefore, even if they listen, they will actually be dismissive of it. And then you can get into a situation where you try to push yourself out and really feel that you've overshared. You've shared yourself too much with someone who won't take that stance afterwards. Someone who knows you really, really well and who doesn't stand up for you in terms of not picking on the other person, but speaking up when you're being slandered so you can find yourself. Be terribly isolated here.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: And that's why it can actually be just as important. I would actually recommend that you don't share too much with too many people in a situation like this. That is, shared in a treatment room or by going to a psychologist. So shared in a room like that.

  Sune Sloth: Is expertise and.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Expertise in. It's exactly because it's as if it can back fire. Further that you share yourself with the wrong people, as you thought you were sharing something wrong. Has this been difficult? I've realized God. I've come to realize that I was a victim of psychological violence. Then you can meet someone. No, I don't think so. It's not that bad, I don't think.

  Sune Sloth: It has been. Who couldn't it have been?

  Mette Miriam Sloth: It's kind of like that. And then you can become such a law. Paralyzed by guilt. Oh no, do I now have orders? Have I slandered a person or something?

  Sune Sloth: Yes, because from the outside it looks like it's just two different perspectives. It's all relative, and people have different opinions. In my case, it's interference in the other person's life. Attempts to enter the other person's bubble they can't see unless they have energy, sense and feel it. And it can be very, very violent, so that's what's visible to those who have had some experience of it and can see that it energetically drains the other person. So the more you feel yourself collapsing and becoming small, the more you are drained. So tapping into the other person's grief in, for example, having a guilty conscience or feeling inferior. It's like a person with narcissism. It's actually for a period at the beginning of the relationship to listen to you in a way that they get a map of where your grief is. And then at some point. And it sounds like it's conscious. I don't think it is. It's actually not. But at some point, they find your trigger points, and when they tap on them, you get drained of energy and give them away. So when you start removing all your trigger points and getting it into the system, you can't be triggered. And then we're in a new place. And the more you do it, the less you are able to use it.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: You become. It becomes impossible to manipulate you. You see what's going on. You can see now that you have that need. Now you're trying to get me there. Now you're trying to get me to participate in this, and now you're trying to blame me for something that you can't handle yourself. It's still uncomfortable. You can see it. You can totally see it playing out in front of you, and you're just saying It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen to me. You mean selfish? That's not what I see at all. So now I choose to drive and you get to where you can see. You have no doubt. You simply have no doubt about your own reality. There can be sadness. It can be a sadness about the consequences of you having to pull out because it hits a lot of other things. It gets tangled up in everything, especially if it's family. But you're not in doubt, and you're kind of like. I want to, I want to. I'd rather be without family than be entangled in that. And I'd rather be without it than to submit to it than to make myself small or take it upon myself that I'm like that. Because I'm not. You, you, you're just no longer in doubt about who you are.

  Sune Sloth: I would say that those who take this journey are making a huge contribution to humanity. About 12 to 15 years ago, people started to become aware of what psychopathy was, and it was something that you were psychopaths in suits, and there were different people who wrote books in Denmark, so it's something you can talk about. The lunch table in the canteen, this thing about what are psychopathic traits and people? Many people have gotten better at it. At least in the part of the world we live in, I think, to spot it. After Trump came up, there has been an awareness of the narcissistic trait, and you can see right now, for example, that Trump is still gaining enough momentum to be allowed to run for the Republican nomination. But there are also many people who have seen through it, so right now there is an awareness of what narcissism is. If you go on YouTube, there are so many videos about what narcissism is, for example. But knowledge is not enough. It's the inner work or work in the energy field that determines whether you can stand it, because there you will get the advice that you need. Gray rock. And that means that you again neither discuss. You don't go in and explain, and you don't go in and defend, but also that you take up as little space as possible. Yes, that's actually you. You don't get taken. You don't get a straight.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: No, I will.

  Sune Sloth: Say that dogging is being inconspicuous and not triggering them, but it is.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Necessary if you choose to stay in the relationship.

  Sune Sloth: Yes.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: But it has a high, high, high price. It has.

  Sune Sloth: That.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: It's your own suicide, the energetic suicide. That's what it is.

  Sune Sloth: It's putting your own life energy on the line. And you have to think about what the consequences are for others. It can.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Be. It can be a gray rock if you know you're in a relationship for a period of time. I say that right down to my child being two years older. There's too much risk of putting my child through that for me to win or lose custody. Depending on the age of the child. Or. Phew, I can see with my family. There is a possibility that they will disinherit me or turn their back on me. Or something. And I just have to establish myself, and I have to work with all the fears I have about what, you know, can happen in such a situation.

  Sune Sloth: It could be that there's a risk of violence, for example, or. Or. Or you're in a financial situation where you can't fend for yourself. Then you may have to do these things. So for a period of time, act with care. Yes, it can be a necessary strategy. Yes, it can be.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: There are also those who relatively often hear from women about these things, both with ex-partners and with partners. And then there's the relationship with the mother in particular. Yes, there can also be a narcissistic father. But it's as if the mother relationship is something completely different, because women have a completely different approach to family than men do, especially if we look at the generation before us. So if you have a narcissistic mother or a mother with these traits, the fact that there is some projected fantasy image of what a family is and what it should be in her life can be very difficult.

  Sune Sloth: It may be that she adheres to the worldview that is imposed on others in the relational sphere. In the family, where a man can have more. How his status is in the workplace. How you do in the hierarchy, how successful he is and things like that.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: And how he sees, what his understanding of the world is. And then you kind of have to adjust to that, whereas for her it's more about what should the home be like and what should it look like? How should parties be held? How should Christmas be celebrated? How should clothes be washed? How should food be cooked? How should you relate to children and grandchildren? How often should she see them? How should it be done? Will she have a billion opinions that she gets uptight and triggered about? Or how are you going to take care of her? How are you going to take care of her emotions and her finances?

  Sune Sloth: Some people demand that you take care of her finances exactly.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: So there can be a huge amount there in terms of guilt. It's my mom. I should be, and it's because she's doing it all the time. She does it all the time. I'm your mother, you should, and she says it directly or not, after all I've done for you. There's martyrdom in that.

  Sune Sloth: Yes, there are all the inherited things that are polished up to a high standard about taking care of your elders and that you have obligations. Now that you've been brought into the world, another human being and things like that.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Exactly. And it's healthy and good that you have violent reactions to being dragged into it. It's really good.

  Sune Sloth: Is there anything else we want to say about it? Now we've exhausted it. We think we've done that.

  Mette Miriam Sloth: Pretty good about the complexity of it.

  Sune Sloth: Yes, and as usual it is. Mette has a lot of experience with this, where there's more on the personal front to read up on my side. But nevertheless, I have also chosen to participate because there are some good experiences in it. Hopefully something you can use for something. Yes, and these are perspectives that are our reality. And that means we have to take what you can use and leave the rest. But nevertheless, we're putting it out there because we still believe there are some insights that are not available out there that we would like to contribute. Exactly! Thanks for listening in. Thank you for listening. Hi, guys. Hi. Uh...