Podcast E17: The Superpowers of Vulnerability

In podcast episode E17, "The Superpowers of Vulnerability," Mette Miriam Sloth explores the power and complexity of vulnerability, especially in the relationship between parents and children. She argues that true vulnerability is a superpower that can transform conflicts into deeper connection, but that it requires courage, patience, and a deep understanding of both our own and our children's emotional landscapes.

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  The Double Nature of Vulnerability:

  Mette compares vulnerability to nuclear power: a force with enormous potential for both good and evil. Just as nuclear power can create both energy and destruction, vulnerability can lead to both deep connection and painful rejection.

  Abuse of Vulnerability: When vulnerability is abused, it can leave deep wounds. Mette emphasizes that we have all experienced being hurt by others' abuse of our vulnerability.

  Protecting Vulnerability: The pain that comes with abusing vulnerability can lead us to shut down and build walls around our hearts. This protects us from further pain, but it also prevents us from experiencing true connection.

  Opening Up to Vulnerability: Mette encourages us to be brave and open to vulnerability, but with consideration and awareness of who we share our vulnerability with.

  Children's Vulnerability:

  Children are naturally vulnerable and dependent on adults to feel safe and loved. Mette explains that children often project their feelings onto their parents because they cannot handle them themselves yet.

  The Parent as a Vulnerability Anchor: Parents have a responsibility to create a safe space for children's vulnerability. They must accommodate children's feelings, even when they are difficult, and help them navigate their emotional landscape.

  Conflicts as an Opportunity for Growth: Conflicts between parents and children are inevitable, but Mette sees them as an opportunity to strengthen the vulnerability muscle. By learning to repair and restore connection after a conflict, children can develop a healthy approach to vulnerability in future relationships.

  Avoiding Moralizing and Control: Mette warns against moralizing about children's feelings or trying to control them. This can lead to the child shutting down their vulnerability and losing trust in their parents.

  Patience and Presence: The key to strengthening children's vulnerability is patience and presence. Parents should give children space to express their feelings and time to land in themselves after a conflict.

  Restoring Connection After Conflict:

  Mette describes a "regulation cycle" where children move through different emotional states after a conflict, from anger to crying to vulnerability.

  Anger as a Boundary: Anger is a natural reaction to conflict and can be seen as a boundary that protects the child. It is important to respect the child's anger and allow it to subside.

  Crying as a Release: Crying is a sign that the anger is letting go and that the child is opening up to vulnerability. Crying can be painful, but it is a necessary part of the healing process.

  Reaching Out in Vulnerability: When the crying has subsided, the child will often seek connection. It is the parents' responsibility to reach out and restore the emotional connection.

  Recognizing Authentic Vulnerability: Mette describes different signs of authentic vulnerability: a desire to be close, a smile, a look that seeks contact.

  Accommodating the Parents' Own Vulnerability: Parents can also experience vulnerability after a conflict. It is important that they give themselves time to land in themselves before trying to reconnect with the child.

• Transcript

  Translated transcript of the original Danish podcast

  Host: Mette Miriam Sloth

  And you could say that vulnerability is, it's actually the place where we are when we are most soft, most open, and we share something of ourselves. So vulnerability is actually where we are capable of self-reflection. And it's actually exactly the place where we are able to mature and move and learn. At the same time, we have a deep, deep desire to be seen and met incredibly easily by those closest to us. So we can work with vulnerability in relation to our spiritual practice and work upwards and feel seen and met. But there is something incredibly beautiful in feeling seen and met by another human being in vulnerability. Vulnerability is also about the relational. It's about the common humanity. And that's also why vulnerability can feel so scary to open up because you will most likely Not, I would actually say that you will have tried to feel your vulnerability abused. You will have tried to feel that you have opened up to a person where you have aired some concerns maybe about yourself or some things that have been vulnerable in your journey or otherwise. You know, let people into a place where maybe you've never let anything in before, and then later you find out that the person has either told it back, uh, or at some point there's a conflict with this person where the person is going to take what you've shared in a very open open open moment, a very vulnerable moment where the person is going to throw it back in your face. Well, you also said that you had struggled with anxiety at some point. Don't you think it's really just that you're a bit unstable right now? That is, what that person has listened to and taken in and mirrored at that time is now being used as a weapon against you. And that's also why I say in the title that vulnerability is a superpower. So it is and it is, for better or worse, like nuclear power. Nuclear power when it's used to create energy. But it's actually extremely sustainable. It's quite cheap. It can feed a lot of people. It can create a lot. The problem is just that it has to be handled in such a way that it doesn't run amok and can't be used for the arms industry. There's something there. It becomes a paradox. And it's exactly the same with vulnerability. It can be a nuclear weapon, but it can also be a superpower that can be hugely transformative in your relationships. It can really create a completely profound depth in yourself and also in the relationships with the people you open up in vulnerability with, which are typically those closest to you. You might have some good colleagues and such, but it's typically our team partners, our children and family members and chosen family or soul family if you like, but you don't let just anyone into your vulnerability and neither should you. It can actually sometimes be too risky if we have some wounds that make us so hungry to feel love. Because we feel so completely deprived, we can open up too much. We'll open up to the wrong people and then actually really feel like someone's messing around. It feels like there's someone joking around in your heart. Your physical heart, it hurts indescribably. So sometimes we also get some blows, and sometimes it can happen that we have opened up in vulnerability to someone we should never have let in, and then we have been jerked on in the heart. Then we close up, we get defences. But the act of shutting down vulnerability, where we actually keep it, it's not just other people we keep an arm's length away. It's also ourselves. We also get to shut down our own compassion and gentleness towards ourselves. It's the side effect of entrenching our vulnerability and entrenching our heart. That pain is also incredibly unbearable. So that's where you come to distrust people. You distrust all people, but not all people will mess with your heart. So it's about opening up and trusting that the person won't jerk you around. At the same time, sometimes when we've closed for a long time, they will. Not because they're evil, but because sometimes it happens. And that's actually why I want to say that if you take away just one thing from this lecture today, it's that we dedicate your life to saying this is the promise I make to myself, and I'm going to keep it in relation to never abusing the vulnerability that people show you. So that you don't resist the temptation, when you get tired of them or angry with them or don't have a conflict with them, that you turn around and take the vulnerable material you have with them and smack them right in the face. Do on your children, not on your partner, on your ex-partner. And at the same time recognise that you're going to do it. This is where we can become the most demeaning. This is where we become predators. And we all do it. We all have that darkness, we all have it in us. So not only will you have experienced how painful it is, you will also have accidentally done it to someone. So it's something that we have to both balance and heal those wounds when we've been exposed to it as well as recognise and integrate the darkness that's in us. That we come to it ourselves. That we come to when we fall into our survival lower chakra if you will or our survival instincts which are also our defence. Right here it's to the right leg and looking at the person you're in conflict with as an enemy and taking vulnerable material and throwing it directly at them, because it's a way to push them back and it's a way to gain power. So it's much more important to be aware that it's also a way of operating a human body, that we can also have such predatory behaviour. And it's in all of us. Even the most empathetic heart opens us all up. So you will do it less than such a highly disagreeable person will do, but in a pressure situation you will be tempted and you will also have come to it. When you come to it, when you come to use vulnerability as a weapon, the vulnerability that others have shared with, the vulnerability that others have let you into as a weapon m clean up immediately. As soon as you come out of that state again and feel guilty, thinking like this: ‘God, I don't like that. I don't like seeing that monster in myself. I didn't like the words that came out of my mouth. I didn't like seeing the horrified look that was on your face that I was going to do this to you.’ Go back and apologise. Just say: ‘Hey, that wasn't okay, I'm going to work 24/7 to make sure I'm not going to do that again. If we all if all men there's something like that with Lar I think he's saying if all children meditated not so 10 minutes a day then we would have a very peaceful world and I can partly agree with him I would say if we all do this if we all do this and take care of our darkness take care of our inner predator uf where we just in a relatively short time get a very different world. So this when it's in relation to your children with vulnerability to your children and what does it look like, I've also received many questions about what the hell does it look like when children reach out in vulnerability? Um, because everyone has an instinct or an intuition that it's important, and it can look different, but you can say what many parents can recognise is that if I take the conflict situation and the reason why I take it, this is where it can be most difficult to get back to vulnerability in the relationship. Feeling connected. We can also call it feeling connected to each other. Well, you know, there's such a playful lightness. There's such a leaning in. There's trust, there's laughter, there's you know, there's great co-operation. It's kind of delicious. It's delicious when we feel connected. It's incredibly nice. I feel like there's room to be me and my differences, there's room to be you. So maybe that's also where we don't experience it so often, because there's so much else in the world. You could say what it looks like from babies all the way up, it's when you can say when the little baby becomes overwhelmed with emotions. That is, I'm tired, I'm cold, I'm hungry, there was a cat that scratched me. There can be so many things that do. And the baby goes for such ecstatic joy, you know, where we can't help but smile, because when we see a baby that just kind of splashes around or crawls and says da da and laughs and smiles. And just like that, a baby who is in joy. It's almost ecstatic happiness. So we can only, if we're in a good place, we can only feel it. That's also why people flock like babies almost get their plasma, because there's so much life energy around them when they're in that state. But very quickly they can change. They can't hold that state because there are so many things in the world they have to get used to. And there's a lot of scares and there's a lot of things that So like, you know, a lot of emotional states that they have to learn to integrate their nerve or get familiar with in their nervous system. So the way that a child will reach down say in that moment where they go from being completely ecstatic to being like you know trembling lower lip and like overwhelmed then they will typically reach out. So what that means is that they are with their language with their crying they will communicate to you hey there's something that makes me uncomfortable there's something there's something I don't know what it is it could be a fart it could be I'm hungry it could be I'm overwhelmed it could be I'm wooden baby doesn't know anything about that but baby communicates it to you with his grey his facial expressions his his flash arched back his your different ways. And what you're doing is you're actually trying to reassure. You'll say, well do you need to cry, do you need to be picked up, there's a clean nappy, you take it off and then all of a sudden you can see that baby is back in the wound, is back in relaxation and kind of focusing on you and having this exchange where you can cuddle and you can play and so on. And that happens many times a day with a baby. So vulnerability in a baby when she's back again after being overwhelmed. So what I call the regulation cycle. So it starts already, you know, baby is in the world, exploring something there. overwhelm and baby will be looking for you. Because I can't, I can't get back to safety on my own. It simply can't be done. I'm too overwhelmed. I haven't learnt all this being on the ground with all these feelings and all these things that can overcome me. Seeking you. You use it by lifting up your heart sound, your scent, your flattery, your hey hey, I got it, it's going to be okay. You know I'm older than you. The cat is not dangerous, but yes, it hurt. You're okay. And then you slowly calm the child down again and just like that it's a form of vulnerability. It's actually the part where I'm so overwhelmed, I'm reaching out to you. It's also a vulnerability that I see in some of the people who reach out. Reaching out to me. They're in deep crisis or they're having a really hard time and they're like, I have to reach out and ask for help. Because often it's not necessarily very easy, especially for people in our culture. We're very much we have a very independent culture, if you can do it all yourself, right? So that sometimes will feel so beaten home, I just have to reach out and ask for help. It can also be a huge vulnerability. It's very, very vulnerable. So it's a different kind of vulnerability. So this thing of reaching out to other people, saying, I want you to listen to me, will you help me? Can I just lean into you for a moment? I simply, I just need someone to lean into, so I can stand on my own again. So that's it, it's such a universal vulnerability thing. You could say that babies do it completely spontaneously. So the trick is to find out what's going on with fewer babies in relation to getting them back to security in themselves and being with you. And there are many answers to that. But as the child gets bigger and gets more willpower and gets their own person, that is to say, more comes through as their own personality and stuff like that, there's also a bit more when we talk about the conflict situation because it's not conflict that we feel that the connection is mostly broken between us. It's easy when your baby cuddles and smiles at you and says da da da da reaches out and honours you and you know grabs you and does funny things. It's very easy to feel connected there. It gets harder when you have a three-year-old like, you're not my mum, I hate you. And breaks things and spits on you and pees on the floor and stuff. You know, it's a lot more hassle. And also teenagers slamming their doors and stuff like, f*** you, I don't want anything to do with you. So it becomes more cowardly, you could say, in these situations. So it's also typically in conflict situations that we become most worried. We become most worried about the relationship. We become the most anxious. We get the most powerless and angry and feel overwhelmed. There are all sorts of other conditions that come up that make us think this is going to be really difficult. And this is why I always link vulnerability to conflict, because these are the situations where we seem to be furthest apart. And this is where it hurts the most. And this is also where it can happen that there is a conflict that at some point stops and all conflicts, at some point, there is a truce. So it doesn't go on indefinitely. It can be quite energy-consuming to go and be angry with each other or have tantrums or at some point the state changes. But that's really, really important and that's the second thing I want to say if you take just two things from this lecture. An addiction never other vulnerabilities. And when you get to that clean it up. Number two when you are in conflict with your children. And this they can also say it can also be transferred in all other relationships. Unless there are relationships that are destructive, where the person doesn't take care of themselves, keeps on being abusive in their behaviour, can't figure out how to move, so you should never let them into the woundedness. See, it can be kind of counterintuitive, because it's a completely different track that I talk about in another lecture. So when I talk about opening up in vulnerability, it's for the people who are also taking care of their own behaviour, their own abusive behaviour. It takes two to tango. When it comes to your children, when they are children, they need to use you as a projection board. They have to vomit their feelings onto you because they can't contain it yet. So for your children, you are the anchor of vulnerability. You're the one who takes and holds the responsibility to get back to feeling emotionally connected again. That responsibility is yours for many years, because the child can't do it yet. And because you do it every time, even though you've had the biggest banter, expect banter and everything, all sorts of emotions come out of you and stuff like that. It's inevitable. But the fact that you actually decide, I'm going to make sure I get back to the child, makes sure that we feel connected. When you take that responsibility, you ensure that the child actually avoids having to shut down their vulnerability. You know that the child has access to their vulnerability. What we can get to along the way with the child, who then gets a little bigger and starts to react in different ways that we don't like. This is where we can shut down the child's vulnerability, because we start to become, we start to stand out a lot. We start to moralise. We start to say, you need to sit and talk to me, then you need to apologise. There are all sorts of things that we've learnt over time that are pretty useless in relation to vulnerability, which actually means that the child starts on the other side of such a conflict and says, well, just start shutting down, down, down, down, down, down, down, down, down, down. Um, and the problem with that is, one thing is that we lose access to the child. The other thing is that when that child becomes an adult and has to enter into relationships with others, it will be difficult to open up vulnerability in relation to going back and finding each other after a conflict, because the vulnerability muscle is simply not trained. It's simply untrained and there's an entrenchment. So it's actually, the better you are at taking the vulnerability responsibility and coming back and making sure that okay, now my child is soft as butter leaning into me, now we're back. There might be a conflict again in 10 minutes or an hour or whatever, but right now we're back. Um, it's actually what makes your child not develop vulnerability, evned, because the little baby has that, but actually matures in it and doesn't get shut down and doesn't get shut down and doesn't get shut down there. Of course, there can be other factors. There's something about being able to shut down a bit at school, if that's the case, so it's not just your main responsibility. It's not like if your child is struggling with vulnerability, then you've failed. It's because I know that mums can take on a huge amount of guilt and shame. on themselves here. So it's more to say that you're contributing, but the fact that you're taking responsibility will ensure that your child, together with you, gets a sense that it's possible. It is possible to land back in safety and trust in a relationship after conflict. I would say the child simply gets neurological networks and the ability in the nervous system to know that this is a possibility. In other words, you give the child a ruler to say this is how it is possible for you to act in relationships. Yes, we can get pissed. Turn on each other. Yes, we can say horrible things to each other. Yes, I might shout at you. Yes, I might push you. Yes, I might do all sorts of horrible things. But I come back and say the love remains. And I look at my behaviour. I take care of it. And that's when we talk about mirroring. This is where children can start to mirror that this is a possibility. That's also why over time what I can see now is my 10-year-old son, because I've taken great pride in trying to do this. Um. And when someone thinks it's like that, you must be super good at vulnerability, and no, I'm not. I've been completely closed off. I've been completely entrenched in terms of opening up and letting anyone in for anything. So it has really taken blood, sweat and freaking tears to practice letting someone in and also to realise that sometimes I've let the wrong people in and all that stuff that we humans do. So I've seen it as hardcore practice with my son, not because it's a project, but it's more about how the hell do I get back and make it safe for him to lean into me and when I've messed up in the teat and when I've lost the pacifier and I've flipped out. And that's why those of you who have followed me and my work for a while will see that I very often talk about this this island of regulation talks about how we find each other again on the other side of a conflict and that's also why I say as a rule of thumb if you are able to and to take responsibility on the other side of conflict then it doesn't actually matter they have conflicts of course of course of course let's say you have a pattern of sudden queue rage because you've been met in a specific way when you were a child so at some point you just go into a total tantrum or you get caught in a two day cold or whatever depending on what your What your pattern is, we all have to try, we all have unhelpful patterns that make us sometimes unbearable to be around. We are all worthy beings. Sometimes we have behaviours that are unbearable. So that and the dignity is always there. The unbearable behaviours we have to deal with. And if you're going through a close fight, you'll want to know where it is. Ask your good friends. Ask your partner. When you dare to get an honest answer, they'll be able to tell you where exactly you're being pretty insufferable around. And you'll be able to accurately tell your friends and your partner. When I say that, it's during these pressurised situations where you're not much fun to be around. I mean, we all have it, and we're going to play it out with our children as well. So of course if you have a pattern that every time this happens, you have a huge reaction to it. It's not always useful to just come back, pick up the vulnerability and apologise and do love bumbling. Of course, that doesn't work because over time the child will lose it just like that, but you go into a rage and then you come back the next day and apologise and it came and phew that was unpleasant just like that. Of course, we should see it more as sometimes we get so pressurised that we end up there but at the same time we go back into vulnerability, so we go back and you know and are available for our children to say, okay I'm here, yes, we had a disagreement. Allowing the child to be angry with us until the anger is released. That is, we dance on the other side of the conflict until we feel connected again in different ways, we find ourselves standing in that uncomfortable space. In other words, I take responsibility, I stay here until we have found each other again. So there's both that track and doing it continuously, a bit like brushing your teeth. I brush my teeth, you know, two or three times a day or whatever. So it's also saying it's not, I do it as a practice. This is simply that. At the same time as you also go through your behaviour and think, okay, where is it that my apology starts to ring hollow, where is it that I'm going to make the same automatic response, which is inappropriate or expressive or trust-breaking in relation to my close relationships? Where am I going round in circles? And here it's both something about using vulnerability to yourself having loneliness because those patterns will only be there because you've been exposed to something that has forced you into it. At some point in time, it's evolutionarily beneficial for you to have that behaviour to protect yourself. Now that you're an adult, it will probably just cause more damage in relationships than it will protect you. But it will feel like you have to have that behaviour to protect yourself. So there's something about working on two tracks. And you also need to know the difference between what are your smokworks? Well, we always have some quirks, you know. It's not that it's not about whether you're always a bit grumpy in the morning or you're a bit grumpy when you're hungry or you know, you're someone who needs a lot of downtime. Well, we've always had people together who are just kind of who you are and it's not so much that let go of that, your children can easily accommodate that sometimes you're weird as long as you make peace with your own weirdness. It's more these things where you can feel in your system that your whole system locks up, that is, when some specific thing happens that triggers you, your whole system locks up and you'll typically know it, you'll typically when I sit and say these things, you'll think of something where you'll think like okay it's when that happens then I know that this is running away with me It feels like it's a train running away with you that you can't stop or it's a cold or a chill in your system that you can't melt and then you're suddenly overwhelmed by the condition and start to act in a way that you know you don't want and that your relationships don't want you to expose it to either. This is where you kind of have to lovingly go in and work with that side loop. So this is when we are in a conflict situation and this is where I hear a lot. What the hell does it look like if my child doesn't reach out in vulnerability? Here I would say, well, you have to look at it like this. Maybe the child comes afterwards, the little child like that and reaches out. But many children on the other side of the conflict do not reach out. So it's actually something about you reaching out to them. And that's also what I see my son doing now. He's turning 11 this summer. Um, so I've always made sure to go back to him for pretty much all the years. And now he's kind of pre-teen, whereas before when he was four, he would go crazy and smash things and he was really furious and stuff. So I had to try and navigate that. Now that he's really angry, it's more like he gets a bit like, I don't like you. And then he leaves, then he slams the door, then he sits in his room, and then he reads something, he's really angry, and then he sits and sulks, and then I kind of leave him alone, because if I go in, he says: ‘Fuck off, this is my room.’ Get out. You know, there's respect for the fact that right now I, when I'm in anger, I don't fucking bother looking at you, you know. I'm just fine like that. And then at some point, different things can happen depending on what the conflict is. If it's a conflict over the fact that I've had to enforce a boundary, just like, no, this has to be this way. I know you don't like it, but this is how it is. Which sometimes we are, as parents we sometimes need to have a bigger perspective. This is the way it is. And I can see that you don't like it, but there's nothing To do. For example, he came down with corona. He was down with a fever the morning he was supposed to go to his aunt's party at school. He was furious as hell because he was deeply, hugely upset that he couldn't come and he was just like, I go to school. I was knocking punches and just kind of like, there's nothing to do. You have a fever and you have to stay home. And so he had to get through that, and then he had to deal with what happens when he had to use me as a projection charge, because he'd been so excited, he'd been so excited about his costume, and it was so painful for him to land in. There is nothing to do and surrender to the powerless. There's nothing I can do. I can't leave. So I had to be the bogeyman. I had to be the one who stood up and said, this can't be done. Because then he had the opportunity to direct his anger at someone. It's kind of like that, because then it became my fault. It wasn't, of course. But he needed to, because there was so much anger building up, that this happens. That happens because we have a nervous system, which means that when we bomb into something, something we really want, that we can't have, we get angry. But as we get older, we can learn to sit with that anger without spitting it out in someone's face and sit and regulate it ourselves and move into compassion for ourselves. Okay, it didn't work out, what I had hoped would work out, doesn't work out. Or maybe we just manage to scream in frustration. But as we get older and more mature, we stop taking our anger out on others because it's not their fault. But when we're younger, it's really hard, because this anger is so big, and it needs to be expressed. It's really just a force. So that's why you're projecting it onto your children. It doesn't mean that you just have to be such a punchback and just like you just have to, you know, floor it, they have to walk all over. You just have to expect that when your kids are really overwhelmed by something, they're going to throw their emotions out. On you. Like my son did here. He was just like, go away, it's your fault. I'm sure his dad wouldn't have done that, and I know his dad wouldn't have made him go somewhere. It's no use saying that because he's caught up in the anger. He's huge right there. He just overwhelms. The anger has simply wired his system. So the only thing I can do is to give him space and tell him, fine, you can do that, I won't change the fact that he can leave, but I also give him space to be in the anger, because I know the anger will let go again. So there's no need to. The best thing to do when your children are angry is because you really want to teach them things. You Because I want to teach him that yes, life is sometimes like that, that what you had planned, it's not going to work out. You know, it's going to go wrong. That's one thing. The other thing is that you also want them to land somewhere where they feel connected to you again. You want them to land. You want them to land in the place where you're back. Because standing in a field where your child is angry with you is not nice. I mean, it's very uncomfortable. So sometimes we can try to interrupt the anger period. When you try to talk about use your words and don't be so angry with me and it's not my fault. You can try all sorts of things. But once the anger has taken over the system, you have to let it go again. And that can take time. So the trick is actually to be able to stand in the chaos of your conflicts with your loved ones. And that means that the moment your child is angry, for example, it's a good idea not to say much to them. We have a lot of focus on our culture in anger. Oh, you're so angry. Now I can see that you're angry. But something like that. And I understand that, but there's actually no, well, typically what happens, it will also happen if your, if you're pissed off at your partner or pissed off about something, and you're standing there and so and so and so and need to get the anger out, and your partner, I can see that you're angry. Wow, you're angry. Oh, you're so angry. You're so angry. The fact that you want to tear him or her apart is vivid. It's really annoying. So it's more and more important to realise that it's actually better to wait until the anger has subsided again. So it's more about you need to play. You have to be in the chaos field. And that's the situation with my son, where I just let him be. And what I can see now at this age, when he's approaching 11, is that he's actually starting to mirror a bit. He's starting to use all the many hours I've spent being persistent in terms of us finding each other on the other side of conflicts. That's my responsibility. I can see that he's now starting to internalise some of it. He's actually starting to reap the rewards of some of it because then he walks a little bit and then suddenly he comes out in relation to something where he's ended up blaming me when it's not my fault. He has a fever. He has corona and can't come to Shrovetide. That's when he gets so upset that he just uses me as a projection charge. I actually find that he now comes and says, ‘I'm not angry, mum. And it's not anyone's fault. You know, he actually lands it himself. And then I'm just like, hey, it's okay, I understand, I understand, it was a pain in the arse. And then we're back. So that in itself is also a vulnerability. It's that he actually shows his reflection. He shows that I haven't pressured him to apologise. I haven't pressurised him to sit down and talk about his feelings. I've really just left him alone to work things out for himself. Then he comes back and says, mum, I'm not angry anymore. Or it would hurt me to go and be angry and stuff. It's nobody's fault. You know, and then I can feel, I can feel that he needs to lean in. I can feel that he doesn't like the fact that he's shouted at me. He actually doesn't like the fact that he's ended up pushing me away, so I can see from his body language that he's seeking connection. And that's actually what I do. I've never ever said to him that in his entire almost 11-year life, I've never said to him, you have to apologise. I've never done that. But he does. And that's why I'm not so daft that you have to apologise even if you end up doing it. I mean, there may be different values in the family and so on. So I don't interfere with that. It's more like, if you have a friend, well, sometimes it can be something like you've told them to apologise and then they've made a parrot, then they apologise to the sister, but they don't understand where they don't understand the context. So the thing about sometimes having the ice in your stomach to not force and not become moralising, not to force an apology, it can actually do this with children that you give them the place of vulnerability, because I have never ever stood on the other side of an angry out, where if he accidentally smashed something or so sometimes I have cut him for sure. Sometimes I dropped the pacifier for sure because I couldn't withstand his attacks. So in that sense I'm by no means perfect. But what I've really decided is that no matter how gracefully or how not gracefully we come out on the other side of a conflict, I will not force him to stand and apologise. And I won't force him to sit down and talk about how your behaviour has been. You need to take a look at that, because I can just see that what it does is that he ducks and dodges. And what I can remember from myself is the situations where I've been exposed to it. Not because my parents did it very much actually, but I can still remember small episodes that actually make you feel so closed in your system, because what actually happens after a conflict is that there is a rawness. There is one and that's how you will feel with your partner when you've been in conflict with your partner. You have both a stay away, I feel hurt at the same time as you have a deep longing to stay connected to him or her. There has been a deep, deep longing. That would be quite uncomfortable for your system. That's also why sometimes it's the first person who reaches out like hey why don't we talk and then you know if you dare to lean in. That's actually why after conflict when we manage to meet in vulnerability on the other side, that's actually when we sometimes feel like we've hit rock bottom like never before. It's not that I would recommend having conflicts just to feel connected. There's sometimes this thing where you have conflict and then you have make-up sex. It's not that I would say it's an octave higher than that. It's simply that you realise how painful it is to feel disconnected. And the fact that you take responsibility for it on the other hand actually makes you feel it and it's not just a mental decision okay I apologise to you then we're back again. There is a big difference. You can mentally and verbally say to a person yes, that was a pain in the arse. Let's not go there again. And then your body can be completely locked. You can just feel that we may have agreed to a truce, but it hasn't been realised. Right now, I actually don't trust you, and I'm actually almost taking two steps away from you. And I can feel myself starting to watch to see if you're going to do this again. And I start watching your behaviour to see if there are other places where you might jerk off. And that happens in our intimacy. So it also happens with our children. So if we don't pick up on vulnerability on the other side of conflict, it's just something like that, you know, the child goes to their room with a bang, and then we don't talk. We don't talk about it, and then all of a sudden it fades away, and it's just like, well, let's just pretend it's not there. That's been the classic way of approaching conflict. It's typically the way you were met as a child, because that's what our parents knew was possible. My parents have had a strong desire that, well, we don't want to hit our children, because they've been hit themselves. At least mine, at least my mum has expressed that, right? So she thought, I don't want to do that, so I'll try to do something else. But she has still had situations where she was deeply powerless. So what she typically did was either to send us to the room. That was part of the culture. So this wasn't to hang my mum out to dry. It was just that those were the tools they had. So that was the blue-coloured outline. Either we isolate you from the community and take things away from you, or you lose your iPad. You lose or there was no iPad at some point. You don't get dinner or whatever the hell it could be, right? So it's something like you don't get to go to summerland this summer or something like that. Or there was ice cream with cold. It's something about us adults wearing n because we feel we've crossed the line and we feel powerless and then we're angry for hours or days, which is incredibly distressing for children. Or we'll make some half-assed apology like I'm sorry I yelled at you, but it was because you kicked out at me and when you do something like that, I have to yell at you, you know. And you could say that, in a way, it makes logical sense on the face of it. The problem is that when we do that, we end up putting the child in charge of the relationship, and we end up closing down the vulnerability. Because being told is the same thing. If you reach out to your partner and say, I'm really sorry, really, really sorry that we ended up where we ended up. That is, you start reaching out so that we can talk about we just had two perspectives. We've been under pressure in our own way and we can try to meet each other here. If your partner is just like, well, you know what, I can't f***, I can't forgive you, you did it. Or you're driving you, then you would also feel like you're being pounded. So the openness that's in your system, because we can try to meet each other in a way where we stop pointing fingers and stop making war, you'll want to withdraw again. Or you will try to overcompensate, you will try to carry the responsibility of constantly regulating your partner, and you will end up with you all the time. So that's why sleepability is so damn important. And that's also why it's so difficult, and you should see it more as when you're back with your child, because a lot of people have written like, how the hell do I know? What does, how does my child call out? What does the visibility look like? And they have to come and say I'm back again, and you have to sit and talk about it, so how the hell is that? I would say it's more of an emotional state. It's a state of your body. You will have had an argument either with your children or with your partners where you've said, yes, we're going to stop. There's a truce. We won't talk about it anymore, but where you feel shaken to the core. That is, where you feel, you don't feel like you've landed at all. You will have tried that. So on the surface it looks like you're friends again, but you don't have any feeling in your body. You just feel like your baby shouldn't touch you at all. It's unthinkable that you have sex with someone. So you can't open up at all. And you can also have the same thing with your children, where you're like, okay, right now we're not arguing, but I can just look at the look, there are no eyes. You know, the eyes, I'm afraid that I'm losing the connection to my child, because I don't feel connected to my child physically. I feel there is a coldness and a distance between us that makes you anxious, that makes you worry and then possibly pushes it out in anger, if sometimes it's anger because the anxiety and fear is just underneath versus huge huge conflict with your children shouting and screaming, so it's gone completely bananas and so on, so maybe even gone so you know that there's been you know you've been hit and hit you, so it's not because I'm not recommending that we hit our children, it's more to say that sometimes conflicts can be extremely violent, so you may well have had a conflict that didn't look so violent but that hit really really deep where on the surface you decided now we're good friends through covering what you feel and then I may have maybe a conflict with the children where they have gone completely was complete freaking chaos so you have shouted like you never thought you would shout before or you you were so you have you have been so pressurised that you have reacted more violently than you may have ever experienced yourself but somehow you have managed to you've managed to stand in the chaos you've managed to stand in the guilt that arises in you when the anger is released in you just kind of okay this is what you have to take responsibility for and you've managed to go back to your child and rumm your child has been angry with you has been scared and say fuck off and you must never do that again. And what are you going to do? You've just been like bring it on. I'm standing and I'm not going anywhere and I get it. You understand yourself. You're being kind to yourself because you know why you reacted. You might say it was pressure or life circumstances or responsibility or your own trauma that has been triggered that is not your child's responsibility. So it's running inside you. So you have compassion for that while you stand there with your child and say I understand why you get angry. I understand it well. I can't take it away. So you have to be in that state. And then at some point, the anger eats away at your child. And then that opening and vulnerability comes about - I don't want to be angry with you mum. At dad. I do, I want to feel connected to you, but I had to get rid of this first because what happened awakened my fight and flight. Of course, that's not what your child says, but that's what happens. It's actually what it is when your child reaches out and says and the way that you can see that your child is in, what to call it authentic vulnerability, it seems to be universal. It's that when we're back, when our body opens up again, when trust lands again, what happens is that we want to touch each other. We want to smile and laugh. We want to be close. We want to be emotionally close. And we typically also want to be physically close. And here it can vary. For example, my son, who is almost 11 years old, is sometimes incredibly cuddly, right? So both when we're feeling attached, but also on the other side of conflict, he can be like mummy I love you, mummy. And sometimes it's just like, I'm okay mum, I'm not mad at you anymore. And then I'll say, okay, let's talk about it, but he says it in a way where I can feel that we're back together again. So it's also more, so that's why I'm also a little careful about putting too much emphasis on what vulnerability looks like. Because then you can feel like it's such a recipe. And then I sometimes have parents like my child doesn't apologise or my child doesn't reach out or my child never gets on the other side. I just think that you have to keep an eye on how your child does it. And it's a lot about your emotional connection to your child. And it's also a lot about how you feel in your own body. Because sometimes your child may actually open up in vulnerability or come and say now I'm not angry anymore. But you've been so shaken by what has happened between you that you've become anxious. You don't feel like it's good enough, you feel like it's not good enough because my image of us feeling connected, we've sat and talked about this or that. So sometimes your expectations of what a vulnerability meeting looks like can actually get in the way. So that's why I would recommend that we try to do some of these exercises at the end of the talk. More about going down instead of trying to figure it out up here. Well, shouldn't we talk about that? Well, shouldn't my child do this, or have I ruined the relationship for life and stuff like that. But I go down and feel in my body, how do you feel on the other side of a conflict? And it's actually important that you spend time getting back into yourself when you're shaken in relation to your children and you don't know what the hell I'm doing right now. I don't understand the behaviour and should I set a limit, should I what? Well, we all get incredibly confused in relation to children all the time. And then expect it to happen. Expect to be freaked out many times. So the trick is to know, okay, I always find a way back to knowing that, okay, well, that was a boundary I had to stand by, uh, and the child had to rage at it when it finally lands and surrender to the fact that this is it, it's without me having to, you know, power point and everything else, right? Sometimes it's right. Sometimes you go in and revise just like that: ‘No, okay, that wasn't me so we're going to be really confused.’ But once you've tried several times that you've been in that huge, huge conflict and you've landed it. The way that I hear parents resonate is when I talk about the regulation cycle, there's the anger, there's the, I don't know what's doing, don't look at me, don't touch me, I run away and I slam doors, and then at some point it might be, then the state changes. That's the hardest place to stand, that's the anger. At some point the state changes. Now, if the child falls and hurts themselves a little bit or on someone or you know we parry let's say the child knocks out and we just parry hits a bone and it hurts the child a little bit it's not because we want it to hurt but the fact that the child changes state and then there's crying and it's actually in the crying is a bigger that's when the child starts to open up its system more in anger there's just blank rejection that's what's in anger anger anger is a boundary it's a separation between you and me and you just have to piss off with you so it's in the fight-flight but when the crying sets in then this anger starts to evaporate. So you could almost say that crying might actually help to release the anger. In other words, we might actually release the adrenaline and cortisol contained in the anger, because the body can't stand to be in that state. So all the states will shift again. So the trick is to dare to be in the states and play with them until a shift occurs. And when the crying comes, there starts to be a vulnerability, because then the child actually starts to reach out or you have had the opportunity because the child typically wants to be touched when there is crying. And then many people ask, what if my child never cries? What if my child has shut down and never reaches out again? What if I've intervened? Or something has happened when we've had many conflicts in the past, where we haven't been able to pick up on the other side, so the child doesn't reach out afterwards. And the trick here is to slowly make it safe for your child to open up in vulnerability again. Because it may well be that you've created an environment at home where your child feels like, now I have to sit and talk about this, or now I have to sit, now I have to apologise, or now I have to understand it in a certain way as my mother or father sees it. I have to eat their worldview, you know, before they're okay. So I don't even get space to tell them how I experienced it or I don't get space for the feelings I have about it. Okay, yeah. OK, OK, OK, OK. It's not okay to get angry. It's still very difficult for us to accommodate children's emotions. We're much more focused on it than other generations have been in the past around children. We're much more focused on it, but we also try to teach it like you would learn to swim by being thrown into deep water. Because most of us weren't typically not met in all our emotions as children. Because it was still very much collectively accepted to have our emotions shut down when we were children. And even worse the further you go back in time. So we're on a bit of a slippery slope here. So we're kind of splashing around and we're like what the hell is it okay for you to react like this, should I set a limit. Now I feel like I'm overstepping the mark. So you know, it's a bit, it's not easy this. That and that's also why I think this sorbu resonates with so many people because it's really hard. And we have no doubt how it feels when we land a conflict that makes us feel connected. We also have no doubt about how uncomfortable it is to feel like we have a conflict, or there's a distance, or there's something unfinished with family members, with friends. It's incredibly uncomfortable. Unless you have a definite personality disorder and above the dyssocial personality disorders. And here we're more into psychopathy than for even narcissists it would be deeply uncomfortable. They won't know what to do about it, but it's not nice for them. Um, so unless that's the case, it's really really uncomfortable to have something like that unsaid and unfinished. And at the same time, it may well be that you feel you've said something, and you have to say that, but there's still a coldness or a kind of distance. And it's more of a bodily experience versus this thing about children becoming soft as butter. So that was a day I started a long time ago in terms of that's what I hear parents say and that's what I experience. The way you can reach that vulnerability, when you feel it, it's like your child becomes soft, so it's like they melt into your arms or they melt into your trust or they melt. They might not be that physical. Some children are very physical, some are less physical. But you would still feel it. You would feel it like now my baby is back again. You know, there's a liveliness, there's life in the eyes. There's a, you know, quickest smile, there's a natural helpfulness. There's that natural reaching out. There's a natural desire to be close depending on how physical your child is, because there's a difference. But you will feel it. I can tell when I ask parents, because it's the first thing I ask when parents reach out in relation to the many conflicts. How do you land them? The conflicts are less important really, because what goes around comes around typically. We wear glasses. What's crucial is how we land in them. What's happening? And that's where I have an eye for and often the parents often say: ‘Well, but we always get it landed or you know, we don't know, we can't be bothered with it, and then we want to cuddle or we get it landed, and then we find each other again. And that's kind of good and that finding each other again, that seems to be the thing about finding each other. We can just feel that there's a naturalness about being together. There is a desire to be together. And the system is calm. There's none of this surveillance on God. Is the relationship ruined forever? Erm, what happens going forward? Is it going to happen again? What does this mean? It's as if there is a resonance between the child's and our nervous systems, where it's safe and nice to be. Regardless of whether you're doing something together or not. You can just feel, you can feel that you're back again. Um, and for those of you who might be sitting out there thinking, I can't feel that. I can't feel it with my child. Or or I can't feel it with my partner. And if you're one of those people who feel that way because some of you want to feel that way, it's probably because you haven't experienced your parents ever. And it may be that you never had the experience of someone taking that responsibility with you when you were children. So you haven't had that experience with your parents, what it's like to feel so completely shrunk down and so completely wronged or so completely angry or something, and then not minutes or hours later you feel like it's completely gone again. Okay, we could do that, we could go through that. We could find each other here. And it will, and it's more, if you don't have that experience in your nervous system, it actually means that it's something you need to go out and try to create. So it's also just about having enormous ease, that it's not about you not being able to do it. And it's not about you not being entitled or not being worthy of being met like that. It's more about how you've unfortunately been treated. How you've been conditioned. It's more about what didn't happen. What parents were not able to do possibly because they had never been met like that either. And to you I just want to say it's possible. And the reason I know it's possible is because I do it myself and see people do it all the time. It is possible to exercise that kind of vulnerability mouse. To rediscover that compass of feeling. OK, OK, OK. Now I'm all the way out there where I'm furious or extremely anxious or pissed off or worried and actually come back both feeling at home in myself but also feeling at home in relationship with the other. It is possible. And it's possible to practise it, even if you're sitting there thinking, I can feel that for a long time, but I've never actually tried it in practice, because you may have been shamed, shamed and told that it's your fault that we end up here. So you will constantly have to pack yourself away when you were a child. Or maybe your parents ended up in a place where they had no idea what to do on the other side of conflict. The classic ways that parents, our parents and the last generation, have dealt with this, is to go to your room or ignore the shit, isolate from the community or try to take responsibility by apologising, but at the same time saying, but the reason I got so angry was because it was something you did. So that's the man erases all that. Apologise first. So the art is actually something you go back to your child yourself. Even if your child has kicked and hit you and shouted things at you and things like that, where you actually feel like you're overstepping your boundaries, of course your system will respond to that. But having an understanding of, why is my child doing that? Okay, right now my child is so caught up in the anger that it's not personal. It's about something else. And you can say, of course the child has to learn to navigate it, that it's not intentional, but it's about the emotional maturity. The way you help the emotional maturity is by keeping the door open to vulnerability. So the fact that you come back when your child has landed and is lying there and is insecure as hell and misses connection with you can't reach out. Finding out how to reach out yet due to age and immaturity because your child must be immature. So while the responsibility really lies with you, the fact that you then come back and take the responsibility that you can actually say sorry I shouted at you must have been very uncomfortable. And then there may well be anger again. And you also know that you want your child to be able to say sorry I bit you or sorry I kicked you. You actually don't want that because it's the word ‘sorry’ you're after, but you want what you really want, you want the child to gain self-awareness of what his or her behaviour has done to you because you have to learn that if you do this to your friends they won't want you if you don't if you don't if you don't if you don't learn to control your emotions in relationships then you lose relationships so you are also genuinely concerned about whether your child lands some insights in relation to how the hell it is we behave relationally and thus your child practices with you And here I just want to say, that vulnerability is actually the greatest teacher, because when you manage to stand and have ice in your stomach and then keep your heart warm and your head cool and actually just hold your tongue and not be too quick to push your child to sit and talk to you and learn to apologise and you must also be able to understand and you must understand your behaviour why won't you typically if you set something to do it then you will up in your child becomes so completely you know collapses either as a little fool around and la la la la because it's uncomfortable it's hugely uncomfortable to be there be that raw place where they want connection then you have to be able to understand it's insanely uncomfortable and over the years you will see that they try it may well be they force themselves because they know I can't escape. I'm not escaping. You make me do it every time. So I won't be happy until your system tells me that I've sat and talked and said yes, yes, I'll remember that for next time. I don't know when I'll get angry again. I don't know when I'll be taken by a train. Well, that's it, but they try to tell you because they want you to get off first. The child is almost at peace when you let go of your need to be seen and understood in a certain way. So you actually have to be willing to put that need aside and stand there and say, okay, let's just find each other. And at some point, when you can see that there's an openness, like wide, a look, a reaching out like this: ‘Hey, come here, sweetheart, you know, or just touch or should we just lie here and cuddle together?’ And then that one, you can feel when your child's system starts to open up here, you can then maybe start talking about just like, wow, we got so mad at each other, right? Or and then I would actually say that a good piece of advice might be, you can at least try it. You can try this thing of actually waiting to say something, because what I find that we end up doing is that we're so eager to teach our children this stuff. So we sometimes end up being too quick to try to talk, now we need to talk about what happened. Because we really want them to learn about their experiences so that it's easier for them to relate to the outside world. Both in terms of not crossing boundaries, but also in terms of standing up to others who cross them. Because it's a deep longing and concern for us that our children should learn this. And when we look at how difficult it is for ourselves, we practise it all the time, so it's not surprising. But the trick is for me to actually ask you to try to say less. Like more do it more and just come back and say: ‘Hey, come here.’ Because when you say less, when you take the words out and you don't have this need, you need to get your child somewhere, and you need to like have God have, you need to like understand that your child is saying, yes, I understand what you're saying. Well, okay, then we hope that's done. But it's not the words that change the way we govern the nervous system. They're a player. Of course, they're a player in terms of us making sense of the things that are in our body. But if you can keep it to really just reach out and say: ‘Hey, honey, come here. Wow, you're getting angry.’ Or just like, ‘Well, come here and then just try not to say anything, which will be hard for you probably, but try not to say anything because here you're actually starting to make space for your child to start saying something here. So the fact that you give the space on the other side, you can see your child has let go of the anger and kind of stands there and has raw, and you don't start to push your understanding of what happened down or demand an understanding where the child stands right there, you know, I haven't quite made head or tail of this now, so you can't just give me just just hold me. Just just hold me. You know, it's actually that wonderful, beautiful thing that can happen when you do that, it's your dad, your child starts saying the things to you that you had hoped they could say when they were standing, when you were shouting at each other. It's actually, you're giving the space for the child to practice their self-reflection and be in the vulnerability and give their story to you. Oh, and he will only do that if they are completely confident that you won't abuse the vulnerability, that you won't say, well, you also have a tendency to get so angry, so now we have to do something about it, because the child is just like, I don't want to be there. Sometimes it ends up, I don't even understand it myself. So we can make a lot of mistakes here. And you don't do that because you're an evil person or because you want to shut down your child's vulnerability at all. You actually want the child to be empowered in their self-efficacy. It's a big, it's a big longing of yours. But the way to get there might just look a little different. And that's why you can get a little lost, because your parents probably didn't give you a lot of space to reach out, to understand what was happening, to have the space to talk about it while you were actually just listened to with respect, right? Because and it's not because your parents are young, but because they haven't learnt it either, and their parents haven't learnt it. So it's like we've come to places where we're like okay, now the wheels have gone, they've gone this way. We want it to go that way. So sometimes we have to come to a complete stop. OK, OK, OK. What I have, what I've typically been greeted with, like not to pass it on, it's not really working. So I have to try something else. And that can, that's why it can also seem a bit harsh in your system. Well, I have, what I think are some of the most beautiful moments I've experienced with my own son. Where he's been in resistance in one way or another. One example was when he got pissed off at a girls' class. They were supposed to get each other presents for Santa. He was pissed off because he had got some girl in the class, he just wanted one of his friends, and he didn't like that. And it's such a common thing. You have to learn to deal with those little setbacks in everyday life, right? But he simply couldn't hold it in. He was so affected by it that he couldn't hold it in. So he's going to reveal who he's going to be Santa's friend. And of course she's going to be really upset. Of course she's going to be upset. He's just like, I don't want to be her elf friend, you know. And that's the thing about him saying something inappropriate. He's actually going to just spit out his immediate feeling without having a filter on, right? She'll be really upset. Um, and there's something for me like, how the hell do we get this country? How does he get I want him to understand, I want him to understand that he has actually come to upset someone here. Well, that wasn't his intention, but that's what happened. Um, and it's also this thing with, and I was more so, because I can see when I pick him up, he's still so angry about it, because he knows that, you know, I get the teachers and stuff, because it and it's so fine, because it has to deal with something there. something in the dynamic, and the children have to learn to enter into these dynamics. So we parents also need to get involved in terms of, how the hell do we get them into this? And he was like a thundercloud, and he never wanted to go to school, and he was never going to be in the nose again. So it became very much as it is now. And again, this now, now sounds like I'm exposing him, and it's just such an episode. I could also have used something for my own childhood. What happens, it's not so important whether it's him or me. It happens in all people. When we're trapped in anger, we become black and white. Anger. In anger there is an enemy. And there is one, meaning there is something we need to protect. Regardless of whether the anger is narrated or not. Sometimes anger is hugely contrived in terms of setting boundaries. Sometimes we get tricked, we get angry because things aren't exactly how we would have liked them to be. Um, so you know, I'm just trying to, you know, I can hear, he's caught on to everything that comes out of his mouth in the car home, I can hear if he's, there's nothing he wants, and he wants to go to school, and he never takes it that when we're angry, it's always something like never and nothing. So it's very black and wild. And you know, I just kind of let him rage a little bit, because I have like I can't his brain when we're really really angry, our brain doesn't work very well. And it's no use me coming up with a lot of words for him. So, you know, so I just kind of let it go, and at some point the anger will go away. But inside me, there's all sorts of things going on. I've got all sorts of things going on, there's all sorts of uh pu oh no. And I'm thinking, oh that girl's talking, you know, I know what it's like as a girl. I remember what it's like as a girl in class, and then someone says something and I'm really affected by it and stuff like that. How? And I'm just like oh so sweetheart, you know, and stuff. And I have such a fan, how do I teach him, and how do I get him to feel that without him falling into all kinds of guilt and shame, but at the same time he can feel it, so he can take it with him, so that it can become a learning and a wisdom that he can take with him, so all that stuff goes into me. But you know, I'm saying something because I'm like how the hell do I get him there? You know, if I try to be the pointing finger now that he's in the anger, he'll just push me away and he'll push her away more. So it won't, it won't do anything. So I kind of have to just leave him in that thing where I just, you know, but I don't feed it either. I don't feed it with, well, but that's too bad, it's a shame for you too. Well, you know, I don't do that either. So I'm right in the balance between, I can see that you're angry. Yes, I don't quite agree. I just like that. And the thing about him never wanting to go to school and stuff like that, I don't say anything about that. So I don't feed it. I have that, you know, so I just kind of drift off. I just kind of feel like there's no reason for me to keep fuelling that anger fire. Because what happens with anger requires a lot of life energy to be angry. So at some point, the state will change. And you know, there's a bit of a vibe, he comes out of it and stuff like that, and then we kind of let it go. And then some time goes by where this anger is released. And that's typically what happens. And you'll recognise it because it's completely universal. And that's also why the example of my son could be so many others. It's not so important who it is. When the anger is released, we start to feel. Then we start to feel. So it's also there when you've been arguing with your partner. You go your separate ways at some point, and then right there you have something so rightful, so it's also your fault, and you said, and you hurt me there. There's all kinds of stuff on that person, right? When we land, there would still be some people, no, it hurt what you said right there. But you'd typically also spot the other pieces and just like, phew, I must also, it probably wasn't very nice just now, I said this and this and this. And I can also see that maybe I was tricking a bit too much. Maybe that wasn't what was in it at all. You start to become much more nuanced. You can't do that in anger. In anger, there's you and there's me and me and me and them too, that's simply what's in the anger. So that's also why when we're really really angry it can be a good idea to take a timeout, the only time a timeout makes sense is a parental timeout or an adult timeout when you're so angry that you think I might say things that make things worse, so I just pull back and get it over with and then I come back and talk from another place and talk about these challenges from another place because we're going to be very attacking. So what that did was that and that and that and that I know that my hope was okay at some point when it lands I wonder if he'll become more nuanced here without me having to give him these nuances and try to cram them into him because it's quite uncomfortable being moralised is really uncomfortable even for us adults. It's really annoying and it's not what we learn from. So I just kind of leave him alone and then at some point he comes up to me and it's actually quite spontaneous and he says okay, I actually feel bad about what I did. I can see that she was really upset and she's not one of my friends, but then and then and then I interjected and I was like no, I know what that's like. I know what it's like when you've shouted at someone or you've been really angry at someone you're not particularly good friends with and right then it can feel nice to get really angry because unfortunately if it's one of your good friends but what actually happens on the other hand is that when the anger is released, you don't realise that it's actually not nice at all to have made someone sad about it whether it's someone you're really good friends with or not there's actually something inside us humans where we don't like it and so I talked to him because what he actually came back at he actually came back and sought my guidance and he's like what the hell happens when this happens he tried to understand himself he tried to understand her. So instead of trying to push these things into him when he was in the anger, I wait until the anger has subsided. And there's this vulnerability opening, there's the reflection opening, there's the opportunity to take wisdom in, where he comes on his own. And this is where I say really pay attention to what does your child sound like? How is your child reaching out for your guidance? Really what up. Children can do that in different ways. And I can see it, I have like, I can see it in his, it's up to, it's his gaze. It's the way he asks questions. It's the state that's in his body. And it's the way he still walks around me and then he'll ask me something and then I can see that I keep an eye on him and then I try to be available in a way where I make my own so that it's not like I'm going to look at you and then something will come because I know that he doesn't like it and the regulars don't like it but you know that I can see that I can I can see it in the way he's approaching so I can see he's leaving so he's landed in a place where he's not angry anymore and more nuances are starting to emerge and so it's very important here to keep all morals out because if you're still worried if you're still angry and if you still have that oh my god my child will never learn to function in relationships and my child will never learn boundaries. We can be in all sorts of worries. The problem is, if you're in the worry brother, you can't offer wisdom. Wisdom can only come from such a coherence system. It can only come from a system that is in balance. So the more your child is out of balance, the more your child is in the dark and exploring something in relation to something that is straight or something that is a bit difficult, the more you actually have to be a cheerleader for your child. Like you're going to come out the other side and I can bite in some bits and pieces, but you need to know when in the process you do that. So when he's receptive to my wisdom, then I could turn it up. And then it's very much this thing where I take it very generally. Yes, that's what happens to me too. And you learn from that. And it's just like that and what do you think we should do now? Well, now he actually wanted us to go over and buy her some nice Santa gifts, so he was in control. He didn't want her to feel cheated. Because there was a way in which he could try to do that. And then he would also consider the fact that he said he had apologised to her, but it was a bit because the teacher had demanded it. So you know, now he could feel it, so now he actually wants to apologise to her again. So it ended up really, really well. It ended up that he kind of got an experience of what the hell happens when I accidentally say something and it creates something in someone else. That was actually not so nice. I actually wanted to take responsibility for that. Sometimes we can say something. Sometimes we can also be in a situation where we actually just express our angle, our view on a matter that is not about criticising the other person, but the other person can't handle the fact that they have a different worldview. In a situation like that, there's nothing to s. You can say, I can see that the way I see it is difficult for you. You can say that. But sometimes, if a person is struggling with the fact that we have someone else, that is, there's a difference, then sometimes, to avoid feeling that, God, if you have a different attitude than me, there's something wrong with my attitude, we can try to force the other person to eat ours. So that's also something to be aware of. So we shouldn't always just demand that children apologise or that we apologise ourselves. So again, it's really about vulnerability, it's very much about exploring this issue of boundaries. And then it's simply about having some ice in your stomach in relation to letting the children reach out. And I'd say that's probably the trick if you're in a situation where you feel that your vulnerability has kind of disappeared, you feel like you're losing connection with your child. It's something that you actually start to pay attention to, do you tend to be demanding of explanations on the other side? Have you had a tendency to be demanding of excuses? Have you had a tendency to walk in the cold for maybe hours, where you've bent down and such when your child has come afterwards and just like, I'm not ready to talk to you, I don't want to. So if you've fallen into some of these traps, which are very understandable, by the way, we all do, because then it's quite likely that a child will have had to withdraw, shut down more and more. So that's one of the ways to start opening up to your child and not to start poking your child to say, where is your vulnerability, I want to see it. It's actually that you start not doing that. So you actually start, when in conflict, not doing what you usually do, and then your child starts to realise, hey, something is different. That pressure to be a certain way or look a certain way or do something in a certain way that you want on the other side, where there's not really room for me to come in with my hey, you're not doing that any more. Slowly it will be like that, so your child may start to test, what if I give you a little anger, what if I just go to you? Can you handle that? Can you handle that? Or do you freak out there, fall back and suddenly demand that I just, you know, apologise and eat your perspective. Or if you don't do that either, you're standing there punching and you're just being tested. You know, there's toothpaste on the window and there's the plate that gets smashed. Expect to be tested. Expect your child to be If you've come to shut down your child's vulnerability or you've come to overlook your child, not give space to your child's perspective and you start saying, okay, I'm starting to change my behaviour. Expect there will come a time when the child has to test you. Can I count on you not to freak out? Can I count on you to have me here? So expect it to seem like it's going to get worse for a while before it gets better. And then when you can stand there and stand in that field of aggression with your child and dance, maybe move some things that shouldn't break, but you don't fall into your old habits, then you will experience one of the most beautiful things on earth, which is your child suddenly letting go and leaning into trusting you. But you have to be prepared to go through something only slightly resembling a war zone first. So that's the way. So it's not something in relation to opening up vulnerability in your child, you shouldn't over-pick your child. You need to look at yourself in relation to where is it where is it what is it that can make my child feel uncomfortable opening up. Is it because I become too controlling? Is it because I get too anxious? Is it because I get too worried and have a whole script for how my child should act? Because then that's what you have to deal with. Is it because I get too cold and too hard and too square and hold a grudge and don't bother you? If you don't behave properly, you won't bother. But then your child will also shut down, because sometimes your child behaves in a way because he can't do anything else and you become the trick. So it's basically always about you taking care of the things in you. And that's also why I think I'm actually going to stop my speech now, because it's quarter term. I'm sorry, I've, I had corona 14 days ago, so I'm still kind of, I'm still kind of stopped. Erm, but we have erm, it's a quarter now. And so I'm actually going to stop my speech or almost stop and then open up for questions, which we do for half an hour or until there are no more. And then I will spend the rest of the time actually going in and working with these trusts. Give you an opportunity to sit and feel into these states and try to open them up. Because I could imagine that when I say open up to your child's vulnerability, you have to look at how you can make it unsafe for your child to open up. And that also means that right here we get into some of your defences. We get into some of your defences that you had to have in your childhood for various reasons, or that are maybe in your epigenetically because it was necessary in the family line to have it because of the way the environment has been. And that, every time we approach defence, that in itself is freaking vulnerable in the way that we almost just want to hide and run away. And that's why I can't really say this without also giving you tools or exercises on how you can start working with it, because then it will be too overwhelming for your system. And that's why I want to make sure there's time left for it. But I've actually covered more or less everything that I've promised to cover around seedability, I think that the questions that are coming up will probably make us get more nuances in terms of what you have brought and what's going on out there. So I'm now opening up for questions, so feel free to just write away in there, and then we'll move straight on to the exercises when I'm through. I'll give you some time to write, and then I can also check my notes to see if there are things I promised to say that I've forgotten. Okay, good. There's a question here. I'm just reading this because sometimes it looks really strange on the computer. Okay, that's good. Thank you for that. The few times I've had a huge tantrum during really stressful times, cleaned up afterwards when we'd landed back in connection, my eldest daughter, aged five, has given me a hug and said, it's okay, mummy. It makes me feel very uncomfortable because I think, no, it's really not okay that I treat you like that. I feel like she's taking responsibility for it, even though it's my responsibility. What do I do?

  Yes, and it's very interesting because it's actually, it's kind of the opposite pole, it's the opposite pole of it's your fault, I feel this way, which has been a behavioural pattern for you over time. So I apologise for shouting at you, but it's because you were so stupid that I did it. The opposite is actually that we can get knocked over, that we can't bear it if our children say, you know, it's okay, mum, or you can get angry too. And as my own son said at one point, I know I can be incredibly annoying mum, you know. And so the trick is to actually see this purely. So the thing about her coming back and saying, okay, because what's actually very interesting is that children are actually humans actually have the potential to be very forgiving. And especially children, where they hold on to resentment, I actually see that more. It's when it becomes m there can also be some trauma involved that makes it difficult. So there can be different ways in which some children find it easier to be vulnerable and some children find it easier to regulate and let go of anger. So there are differences. There are also differences the children come in with. And there is simply a difference in temperament and in terms of what do we bring epigenetically? What is it that we might have to solve in this life? So for some parents, especially if you have more than one child, you will feel like it's okay for you to get out and get reunited again. Well, it's relatively easy. But with this child. Holy shit, I have to approach it in a completely different way. So there are differences, there are differences inside. But this is exactly where I would actually recommend that you go in and work with your feelings, because it could be that you have a feeling that you've felt that you've had to take responsibility for relationships when you were a child, I can't know that for sure, but it could well be that you've felt that you've had to take responsibility for them. And that means that you experienced the pain of it. You've experienced how much responsibility it is, and how much you really hate that sometimes you can just lean into someone who says, I've got you anyway. Um, and if you can recognise that, you will typically be incredibly afraid of repeating it in your own parent. You will be incredibly afraid that your child will take emotional responsibility because you have felt the pain of it. And it also makes your system extra vigilant. So anything that smacks even a little bit of your child taking responsibility for you will trigger a reaction in your nervous system. But that doesn't necessarily mean that in that situation your child is actually doing it. It can actually be, especially the part where you actually say that you recognise this, well, conflict and we'll come back, I can feel we're connecting. Again, you actually start to have a bit of a picture of how it is that children react so naturally, to use a slightly worn-out phrase, just like normal and natural, what the hell is it really not. But it's really more to say that when that template is in the nervous system of both you and her, my experience is that it actually goes away quite easily. It actually probably means that the child becomes more positively resistant to conflict. In other words, a moment of conflict doesn't have such a deep impact. Knowing that we have some patterns, of course we have to deal with them if they recur and stuff like that, but the fact that we end up in conflict with our children is completely inevitable and they take different approaches at different ages in different ways, so if it's something that's on your end, well, we'll clean it up and I'll go in and take responsibility and I'm there and I can and you can feel like okay now we're back again. If you can simply feel it, I wouldn't be worried about that at all because she takes responsibility, I would actually see it more as a very beautiful side effect of a responsibility you take, where she can actually say hey right now I can do it I can easily accommodate you mum I can easily accommodate your anger right there and it's actually very beautiful in that way. So in that way I hope you might be able to see that a positive narrative can be started about her not actually taking responsibility but I would actually recommend if it makes sense to you when I go through these exercises at the end right there I actually don't have that one with uh but I would actually recommend you to see if you if the exercises make sense to you that you go in the same way and try to recall that feeling of concern about her taking responsibility. Because if you work with it and vibrate it up to compassion for yourself, then I think you'll actually release it from your system and then you'll see it more purely. Then you won't see through that fear filter, because it's possible that there's a fear in you that I'm not going to fucking pass on. It's very typical that we have a couple of themes that we carry from our own childhood. I don't want to repeat what hurt me. But sometimes it can be so violent that we just smell a little bit of fish, and we think that's what it's all about. And it doesn't have to be. At least not at all, when you seem to be so good at getting over and finding each other on the other side of conflict. Okay, there's just one finger here. What if, after a conflict, the child comes back and pretends nothing happened and doesn't seem to want to talk about it? Does the child hide and suppress their vulnerability? No, not necessarily. It can be that it can be. I'm not sure what age the child is. It's very typical that especially smaller children don't come back. That there is nothing. I've never experienced that there may be exceptions, but as a rule of thumb, a child has no interest in coming back and talking, because the rawness on the other side of the conflict is physical. So what the child actually wants is just to feel connected. And then sometimes they want to put it into words, and sometimes they want you to put it into words. But here you can, you would actually be able to see that in the child. If the child doesn't want to make eye contact and wants to walk away from you, then the words are too overwhelming. Then the child doesn't actually need the words right then. Or the child needs to be pushed to the other side of the conflict over time for the words to make sense. So excuse my snot. So I would actually see it more as your child coming back again. What you can do is say again now I don't know what's going on, hey honey, hey honey. Just like that, do like this. Hey, come here for a second. Instead of saying too many words and instead of insisting on eye contact, maybe try to open up the possibility of a physical connection between you. Because that's often what I find that children crave, that there is such a connection. And then sometimes you can feel that maybe a small child stiffens a little and then you can feel the child leaning in like this Oh, that's so nice. That's also what often happens. It's very typical. Now I also counsel couples because some of the same emotions are at play. So that's very often what happens. Let's say you have a conflict and the couple is feeling very, you know, anxious and sad and hurt and angry and stuff like that. And then say that it's your husband or your partner. And he comes over without saying anything, just like that: ‘Hey honey, come here.’ The thing with that and at first you get a little stiff, because you're still a little on your guard, but if you can feel his warmth, his, you know, his love and you really just want to surrender to it. You want to feel connected again. Then you'll feel yourself melting. And that's really what children do. And of course it's kind of respectful because if the child rejects you right there you have to force vulnerability open. It can never be done. That's not how vulnerability works. So it's a matter of dancing with the child and finding ways. And it can also be the case that if you suddenly take them out later that you say you'll land again and it's like you've just hugged and haven't said much, the child doesn't want to say anything and when you try to say something and they don't talk about it, you may well take an indirect route. Again, I don't know how old your child is, but sometimes a situation can arise where you feel like, I'd really like to talk about this, but the child wasn't ready for it, didn't feel like it. I had an example of a family where there had been a huge argument between father and son. Um, and it was like it hadn't really landed, and they were both kind of closed off in relation to it, right? In terms of getting close to it. And I actually recommended watching a film with Matt Damon, who has a huge conflict with his teenage son. And sometimes using indirectly or using books, using literature, because then later on, if you're watching something and you can see the child is completely mesmerised, maybe a conflict to try to understand something, you can be like hey, you see, it actually reminds me a bit of when you got so mad at dad, you see that? You know, there are other openings, so sometimes we don't get everything in the situation. Um, sometimes we may feel that we need to add some words afterwards that just didn't quite work out. Um, but it's more about just having it in mind and then taking it when the vulnerability is there. A bit like when I was waiting for my son to come back from the anger with that situation with his classmate, where I could see, okay, now there was an opening, someone who was like, okay, I can see there's something here I need to take care of, and then I could offer my input. So just try to realise that your child is coming back to you. It may well be that you initiate a hug or something: ‘Hey, come on, baby.’ And then you might say, ‘We just got mad, didn't we? And then you can keep an eye on what the reaction will be, because then you're setting yourself up for vulnerability mode. But you have full respect for what your child has to offer. My six-year-old daughter has never used me to go to her room. I've walked away if I need to count to 10. But now she is so big. I sometimes find her behaviour can be so transgressive that I would like to give her a space to rage in. For example, I now feel a limit to how much rumbling bad words I want to listen to. I therefore ask her to go into the room and shout out. Intent. Well, it may sound harsh, but I clearly feel a limit and think that they're learning that it's not appropriate to throw emotion at people. I mean, I show, I mean, I show anger. I mean, okay. But not hitting or shouting. I'm always ready if she comes out. But often I don't know what to say afterwards, because I want to say I don't like it. But she knows that. So it's all about the emotional state of feeling connected when she comes back. Often though, I'm still angry because I let my boundary cross too much, so I'm not ready, so I might say I'm still angry, but come back when I'm okay. Is it fine even if the child has already opened up? I guess it's about us both being in the relationship. Yes, it is. And you can say that you'll find that sometimes you're so angry that you can't go back because you feel you've crossed the line. That's actually one of the exercises I have, because it's very typical. It's very typical that we feel that the child is being borderline. Whenever we get tripped up in anger and feel offended by our children, it's about the fact that it's typically about the rest of our own childhood. Not in the sense that children, it can be, it's super annoying when they shout, it's super annoying when they kick out. It's super tired. And we want to teach them not to do that and everything. And that's why there can also be anger like that, so I had that with my own son where he used some rubbish that I didn't want to be called at all. And I was very emphatic that it wasn't going to happen. So the trick is to actually start to gain an insight into why my child is reacting and we don't always know but it's something to start to be curious about it, it could be that our children sometimes react by calling us nasty things and lashing out at us and kicking us because we do something that is inappropriate for them, which they are actually trying to communicate to us. If it's a coincidence, it doesn't have to be. Don't see it as you allowing her to say bad words and kick and hit you. You should see it more as she can be so powerless that she can't call you out, that sometimes she can risk not calling you out, that it's the only thing she has to do. In such a case, it would be better to dance with the aggression and land it and turn it into vulnerability rather than isolation from the community. Conversely, you can get so tricky that you'll have to say, okay, just go for the day. And you can say that sometimes if you're angry, they learn to hit a pillow and stuff like that. That can be fine, because sometimes kids, especially during sex, they have a lot of tantrums that aren't about you. It's about the hungry. It's about everything. Because they can't really hold the tension, so there can be a lot of tantrums. And it can also be to say, sometimes it's also good to say, stop that, there's a limit right here, and then you have to go against the limit, but I'll hold on, but without singling you out. So there are many layers to this, but for you, I'll probably go in and work with the fact that it's hard for you to let go of the anger. In other words, you're being tricked by your own boundaries. That's enough, and without realising it, it may well be that you have experienced in your childhood being boundaries violated in different ways, that you have tried to speak up but have not been respected and it may be that it is actually being activated together with your daughter, which means that you actually feel some of what the little girl inside you who has experienced it in your childhood. in you that has experienced it in one way or another when you were a child that she is the part of you that feels out of bounds because when we don't feel out of bounds in a when our children freak out about something when they burst out in anger because they suddenly can't do anything else There have been too many things during the day, and they can't shout it out. They're going to vomit these feelings on us because they're still unmotivated. Then it's going to happen. It's not because we like it, not because we want to, but it will happen. When you don't get tricked, it's not because it's nice to be in, but it just means that it's easier for you to navigate. You don't get overwhelmed by your own emotions. So it's a different state. It's more like you like to go and hope it doesn't take too long, and there might be all sorts of things there. It may also be that you can also feel a little irritation. Well, I can't take it anymore. Okay, fine. Enough. I'll just have to try to figure out what the hell it's all about, and I'll have to do that on the other side. But you, it's easier for you to go on and off like that. You can also get confused, and that's not nice. But when you get overwhelmed, you get angry and get so angry that you actually have to say to someone, I'm so angry I can't come back to you, so that's something that gets tricked into you. And you can say right there you're actually being honest. So she comes out and reaches out in vulnerability, and you're really honest. I can't do that right now. I would definitely recommend that you maybe use these exercises or in some other way to work on letting go of the anger so that you can come back and mend fences. with her because the more times you will have to reject her because you caught your anger, you actually don't want to look at her. So that's what you experience when you're overwhelmed with anger, you can't stand her. And if you reject her out of vulnerability, you run the risk of her shutting down, and she won't come out to you at all. So I would actually also like to work on this in relation to being able to see her a little more clearly and have a greater understanding of why she reacts the way she does, in which situations she really gets on your nerves, I would start by working with the aspect of you that feels transgressed, because it's only there because at some point in your life you have felt transgressed without you having the opportunity to speak up otherwise it would not have been there, but you should not see her as the one who is transgressing. I mean, she doesn't do it to be transgressive, but her behaviour triggers or awakens something that is already in you, which can be if you can get it out in the open and work on it, then you will be able to see her and there will be some things in your relationship here that will fall into place, exactly the one I have included as an exercise. So you can try to see when I'm done with questions here and and and go through it. And then you can try to feel it and see if you can use it for anything. Um, because I think the same as Line. She sometimes comes and acts as if nothing is happening without a care in the world. It can trick me when that happens. Yes, it can. If there's something that actually triggers us quite a lot, it's when our children come back and they just seem to be a bit indifferent. It's kind of, well, there can almost be a little flatness, a little deadness, a little coldness. Some people think it looks like arrogance or something. I would actually say there's a I would say that in the child there's a little, I would say it's basically an expression of I have a desperate longing to feel connected to you, but I'm not comfortable reaching out and doing it. And it could be because of old history about how you have landed conflicts. It could also be because I don't have the courage to do it. It takes a lot. I really need someone I need to be the child and to become and and I need someone to open me up here. I can't do it myself. So again, it's about saying what is the trick in you and taking care of it? Because it's not inconceivable that you may have come out as children and had a deep bond with your parents and your mum or dad met you with coldness. It's not unthinkable at all. And it's not because I'm criticising your parents. It's more because it's the defence that is pronounced in our culture. So it's very pronounced that our parents have tried to handle conflictual situations. So it's aroused defences of coldness and shutdown or outright anger, which they've tried to control because they didn't want to show anger. So what you then experience in your child can again become the parts of your own childhood that hurt you enormously. So it comes back to taking care of that feeling in itself, because then you can better contain it. Then it's still a hassle. It's still a hassle to be with a priest or a child. Which is kind of like, I don't really give a damn. I mean, you're still like, how the hell do I get behind that armour? How um, you still won't be all those things that will be running, but there won't be an overwhelming feeling of, there's something wrong with there's something wrong with my child, and you just need to be put in your place and hold your dear little r*****. So all that stuff, it won't, it won't top that because every time we go down those tracks, and I know them, you're insane. I, I have all my own triggers. Erm, but triggers just have the recognisability that it makes you go down these anger tracks. It's just that you shouldn't be like that towards me, and that I should find a way to put you down. So it shows that something from our own childhood or something from our own woundedness has been activated and that's why we have to go in and work with it first and get it landed, so it may still be that our children are a little dismissive but we can handle it much better, it's much easier because we're a little more curious and inquisitive. How the hell am I going to open up here, how the hell am I going to make this safe when we look through a project, when we look through a grief where we ourselves are overwhelmed by our childhood, it's incredibly easy to make projections. So it's almost impossible not to do it. When we're overwhelmed with emotions, we have to tell the other person that there's something wrong with them, and you're cold, and you're numb, and you're everything. And it's those situations where I don't know if you know grandparents and stuff like that who say like: ‘Why doesn't my grandson come and give me a hug?’ And then all of a sudden they say, it's like, you're such a cold child or something. So there's something going on where it's always a projection. Everything is always put into the child, because I have some feelings I can't handle, so I have to make you wrong, and I have to ask you to take care of it. Um. And that's what we have there, unfortunately, it's something that a lot of adults do too and the reason why we do it is because we haven't learnt to bring projections home so it's such a long, long way in our evolutionary development and learn it so but but but but but the cool thing is that our children show us that when we end up where we have incredibly strong emotions in relation to our children's behaviour, it's because there's something that's being awakened that has hurt like crazy and when we start practicing bringing it home just like that, okay I'll just remove myself from the situation because it landed in me then I go back to my child, we typically see our child through a little more pure. It's a bit like when we're caught up in emotions and looking at our child's behaviour. It's like putting on glasses with an incredible amount of life on the rose. We can't really figure out what the hell is going on. My almost five-year-old son is not very good with body contact and closeness. He has a lot of anger and resistance to getting back into vulnerability after conflict. Sometimes he takes on the role of a cat who wants to cuddle after a goodnight or a love robot who wants to kiss and hug. Is that good enough? Yes, exactly. It's so nice. So there are those who are like five years old, so five-year-olds are sometimes like that, so it's again this thing about there's a difference between how much they throw themselves into your arms, how much they kiss and hug, how much they love you mum or something like that, there's a difference, so there's something about you looking at him, how has he been the five years you've known you, so there, and of course that can also change again, but there will be and it may well be that you've been someone who's been you know, you've mostly enjoyed yourself when he's been ill and then he's been sitting still in your arms or he's you know, he's always on the go, so it may well be that you've kind of like oh I'd like to I've had the baby cuddled with him. But he just hasn't been that kind of child, you know. So this thing about him coming back and it's actually because there's such a little one, it's again this thing about vulnerability. This post-conflict thing, there's this rawness. And sometimes it's actually that children are a little bit addicted to another role where they almost of course have to be a cat or a robot or something else. Feel free to play along. It's something like if he comes back and is such a cat that needs to be cuddled, play along, play along, play along, play along, play along, play along. Then he starts laughing and then he says mum again mum again mum. Because all this laughter and the way you're walking along because he's actually trying, he's trying exactly in vulnerability to lean into you, but he doesn't quite know how to do it, because he's only five, you know. So it's great that he uses these games. So it's just finally just like that: ‘Well, little mister, you're in trouble, do you want some cat food?’ You know, in all sorts of ways, he'll probably start cracking up and laughing. And the more, he might say again, can I cat again? He might want to play it 20 times. So just don't be patient. It just shows how much he's actually, he might be trying to approach a way to be more physical with you, but he can't do it directly, so he does it indirectly. So finally, finally, finally play along. He you should play so much cat with him or robot. You're a this little you know it can robot. But it needs to be dusted off, you know, so you have the opportunity to give him a little massage. You have the opportunity to cuddle him a little in a way that he is able to receive in his own universe. So, finally, it's wonderful to use all that to find out exactly how the children are going to use those entrances. And you'll see that this play and laughter because if there's anything that opens up, it's spontaneous laughter. The brain and nerves can't be trapped in anger or anxiety. And then spontaneously laugh. It simply can't be done. So that's also why I would actually say that after a conflict, it's brilliant what kids do. It's not like it's their instincts and trying to play back in the context of laughter because they feel it completely physically. What is it that does that? It's also that sometimes after a conflict sometimes men in particular can be really good. Sometimes they can use humour in such a loving humour in a way that just redeems us women like this. Sometimes they'll also use humour where we're in a tense rage. They should never have done that, you know. But they try. So there's something about laughter that really just releases in the most beautiful way. I often find that my nine-year-old son withdraws from an ordinary conversation. It might start, for example, by asking what he's been up to during the day. He might say that it was a bad day. If it was a good day, he also tells me that it could be, for example, a good day, he also tells me that it could be because of a conflict with one of his friends. If I ask about the conflict, he shuts down immediately and says I don't want to talk about it. Sometimes he gets really angry and shouts it at me. I've learnt to accept it and leave him alone. But even when I don't ask about it, I don't find that he comes and tells me about the situation later. Therefore, I can get worried that he's carrying things around on his own. What can I do in these situations? Yes, and here you hit on something awkward, something paradoxical and something insanely beautiful all rolled into one. Because the way children learn is actually why many people don't go to therapy. Even though when you go to therapy you see so many times that someone comes here and especially women and the moment they walk in the door, they actually start crying and they feel like it's really really vulnerable for me to have to talk about this. And just think about how vulnerable it can be for a child, so don't see it as being like this, you may have learnt it and trained it and reached out and stuff like that, but he hasn't learned that yet. So that and another thing is how memory is learnt. That is, for him, we often ask the children how was the school day, for real questions. It's like, what the hell are you asking about? Was it lunch? Was it when I laughed? Was it when I got hit in the head with a ball, was it you know. It's very broad. So often they say, it's just like that, it's fine. So many parents think that their kids aren't very talkative or don't want to share, but that's because we're asking in the wrong way. So because the way that you get going, if you want to find out how your child has been feeling, you actually have to be more creative and ask about the way that things are learning, what they're learning in sensations or they're learning sensory. So that's why, let's say you go down and pick up your child from daycare and you just smell and smoke. You know if it's been bonfire day today. It's just the way you smell like a bonfire. Pancakes. And then it could be, let's say there's a bonfire and one child got burnt and they all got really scared or something, the child would start blabbering on about this because the association with the smell and the pancakes and and it tasted good. Oh my god that happened too. So then the nerves would just say hey, something dangerous happened too. And then the child is talking away. So that's why it's a bit tricky to create space for when these stories come. We can't really force them out. At the same time, sometimes we have to ask in ways where it's safe for the child to give them to us. Another thing, so it can be, it can be, for example, if you said he's all dirty. Wow, have you played football today? You're covered in mud or something. And then you might get a little bit of information. Another thing is, I did my own son at one point, he came home from school at the start, when he was at um, or he was in kindergarten. And what happens is he comes home and has a huge tantrum. And we don't understand why. babies for us and stuff like that. And then his dad plays with him and fusses with him, and they build it into a game where they shout babies at each other while laughing. And we have a bit of that, it was very violent. The door was kicked, and at one point he was, he was seven years old and didn't have tantrums very often. So we had no idea what was going on. And what happens is that he ends up lying in bed after he's been through all this. He's got through all these difficulties and he's laughing with his dad, calling me in and being that vulnerability base after conflict. And then he spontaneously tells me that he had asked someone that he would like to play with them. Um, but that they had called him a toddler. So he was reliving this. He simply relived everything that had happened at school. So sometimes instead of having to ask children what happened and expecting them to tell us, keep an eye on how are they behaving? What comes out on the other side of the tantrum, where the vulnerability arises? What is it they paused to not make them do? In other words, give them the space in the pause to tell their own story. Many of the things we want to know about how our children feel come on the other side of a tantrum, because what they've experienced locks into their system, so they process it at home by going crazy or something. And then what happens is that that's when they come up with the words. So sometimes we have to realise that we can't just ask children and expect them to tell us everything that happens in their lives. It's a creative process, so it's just to give them something different in terms of how this works. Erm, and then play with it yourself.